ma'at and mut

[ehatsumi]

help guys, just want to verify, Do Ma'at and mut the same goddess? I'm quit confused with this.

also, have you known any accounts if the sun-god Ra(Re) has a queen/wife? just curious about this (like zeus have hera, jupiter have juno and odin have frigg)

thanks for those who'll reply! :bow:

 

[Mata]

Ma'at and Mut are two distinct deities throughout most of Egypt's history as far as I am aware. Mut is a mother goddess who was conflated and connected with several other goddesses over time. And Ma'at is the personification of ma'at the order of the universe.

And to my knowledge - no, Ra did not have a wife. But I am not 100% certain in that respect.

 

[ehatsumi]

awwww thanks for the answer Mata, appreciate it! I've read accounts that Ra has daughters (some accounts say Bast, Hathor, etc) that's why I am wondering whether Ra produces his children alone or through a mother. Anyways, thanks much for the answer!

 

[Mata]

awwww thanks for the answer Mata, appreciate it! I've read accounts that Ra has daughters (some accounts say Bast, Hathor, etc) that's why I am wondering whether Ra produces his children alone or through a mother. Anyways, thanks much for the answer!

No problem!

Yes, Bast and Hathor are called Daughters of Ra. But they are actually his "eyes". Who help him fight against Apep and keep the world in order. Of course the whole eye thing is mostly symbolic, but I know that some myths describe Shu and Tefnut, who are Atum/Ra's children who get lost in the watery abyss, so Ra sends his eye forth (Hathor) who brings them back to him. And his tears of joy created humans.

Also, Atum, a creator deity, is closely associated with Ra. And Atum is usually thought of as being neither male nor female. Which fits with Ra considering one of his epithets is "The Great He-She", signifying his gender neutrality, even though he is shown as male.

I hope that sheds a little more light on the matter. Egyptian mythology is very complex, mostly because it encompasses a huge span of time with many different beliefs. So there's bound to be conflicting myths to some degree.

 

[ehatsumi]

awesome info!
yeah i also agree, egyptian myth really is very complex, really makes me wanting to know and explore more about it!
many thanks Mata! you really are a big help!


PS
do you have any idea on how the group of egyptian gods are called? for example, olympians for the greek gods and goddesses and aesir for the norse gods and goddesses.

 

[Mata]

awesome info!
yeah i also agree, egyptian myth really is very complex, really makes me wanting to know and explore more about it!
many thanks Mata! you really are a big help!

I am glad I am of some help!

PS
do you have any idea on how the group of egyptian gods are called? for example, olympians for the greek gods and goddesses and aesir for the norse gods and goddesses.

They are commonly called the Netjeru - with many variances of the spelling, with the aforementioned one being the one I have come across the most.

 

[ehatsumi]

ahhhh..
I've come across a certain link wherein the enneads are also the names of the egyptian gods. (I think it's from wikipedia)
it also says:
" The Ennead were worshipped at Heliopolis and consisted of the god Atum, his children Shu and Tefnut, their children Geb and Nut and their children Osiris, Isis, Set and Nephthys."
instead of Atum, can Ra take that place too? I mean,i've read some accounts that interchange Atum and Ra and Amon, would it matter if instead of Atum, Ra will take that place?

Yeah Mata you really are a big help! I really learned a lot especially I am very much curious with the Egyptian myth. :bow:

 

[Mata]

ahhhh..
I've come across a certain link wherein the enneads are also the names of the egyptian gods. (I think it's from wikipedia)
it also says:
" The Ennead were worshipped at Heliopolis and consisted of the god Atum, his children Shu and Tefnut, their children Geb and Nut and their children Osiris, Isis, Set and Nephthys."
instead of Atum, can Ra take that place too? I mean,i've read some accounts that interchange Atum and Ra and Amon, would it matter if instead of Atum, Ra will take that place?

Yeah Mata you really are a big help! I really learned a lot especially I am very much curious with the Egyptian myth. :bow:

Here is where my knowledge is sketchy. All I can really say is that the Ennead was a particular pantheon of a city within a certain time frame. One of the big problems about discussing Ancient Egyptian myths is that they can vary a lot, since they span such a long time frame. Thus, you'll see deity roles and prominence shift greatly as you go through the history. And to make things more complicated, each city had their own version of myths a lot of the time. They would elevate a particular deity above the others. And that's not even mentioning the syncreticism between two or more deities

But anyhow, Atum was one of MANY creator deities throughout Egypt's history. Ptah, Thoth and Sobek are also creator gods, in addition to Ra and Atum. That's one of the reasons when you look at AE mythology that it can have so many contradictions. Because it all developed over such a great time, with many variance geographically, even in the same time period. I know that one of the theories about the contending of Set and Horus. son of Isis, is that there was once two kingdoms that had each respective god as their patron, and started warring with one another, and the victor created the myth of Horus defeating Set and becoming the ruler of Egypt. While that particular myth might be unknown to most other cities and kingdoms that didn't fight in the war. I am unsure how true that theory is, but it shows how historical events between deity cults can shape the mythos in the long run.

And I ramble my point is, you'll find many other myths and records that contradict the Ennead cosmology, I'd wager. I, for one, do know that Ra is often cited as the father of Shu and Tefnut. Since the line between him and Atum is so blurry at times.

So I shall stop my rambling and direct you to this site: Main Page - Wepwawet Wiki

It's a wiki of many Kemetic (the AE word for Egyptian) deities. It's ran by the K.O (Kemetic Orthodox), who are revivalists of AE religion. So their info is not going to be perfect in all respects, but as far as I know, they have some good decent points to jump off of in regards to studying AE myth. If you're not satisfied I might be able to dig up some more stuff.

I hope it helps some ^_^

 

[ehatsumi]

:bow:

I hope it helps some ^_^

:bow:

yeah really helps me a lot! I see that you are well-educated with egyptian myth! whhooow! it really helps to have someone you can interact with.

I am also curious about Bast (Bastet in some accounts ) and Anubis. In some accounts I've read that Bast accompany Ra (when night time comes, Ra will travel on a boat and the snake Apep is there to kill him {something like that} ) and that Bast is Ra's protector.

Does Bast and Anubis related with each other? <-- I ask this out of curiosity.

 

[Mata]

:bow::bow:

yeah really helps me a lot! I see that you are well-educated with egyptian myth! whhooow! it really helps to have someone you can interact with.

I am also curious about Bast (Bastet in some accounts ) and Anubis. In some accounts I've read that Bast accompany Ra (when night time comes, Ra will travel on a boat and the snake Apep is there to kill him {something like that} ) and that Bast is Ra's protector.

Does Bast and Anubis related with each other? <-- I ask this out of curiosity.

Yes, Baset/Bast is an eye of Ra, which means one of her functions is to uphold ma'at, and the enemy of ma'at is isfet (uncreation/chaos) which is represented by Apep. Bastet is one of the many deities who accompanies Ra on his underworld journey, which isn't surprising since one of Bastet's epithets is Devouring Lady, and "Tearer" in reference to her power in protecting the Pharaoh and avenging Ra.
One of the foremost gods to accompany Ra in Duat (underworld) is Set, who is the one that tips the scale in overthrowing Apep. One legend say's that the red of the sunrise is the blood of Apep.

And as far as I know, there's little connection between Anpu/Anubis and Bastet. They are remotely related, with Bastet beinghis great great aunt more or less. But I think I recall reading somewhere that Bastet was the mother of Anubis once. Although I am unsure. I do know that most myths place Osiris as his father, and Nept-het (Nephytys) as his mother. But sometimes Set is his father. Although that association is rare since Set is connected with the desert/infertility.

I am glad you find my rambling of some help

 

[ehatsumi]

is it also true that Set is the prince of darkness and evil? kinda weird because he also protects Ra..

haha if you only knew how much you helped me with these! i really am thankful!

 

[Mata]

is it also true that Set is the prince of darkness and evil? kinda weird because he also protects Ra..

haha if you only knew how much you helped me with these! i really am thankful!

Well, during the very late periods of Egypt's history before the Hellenization, Set was starting to be painted as a more darker figure. But his role in most myths is that of "necessary chaos" he represents the darker side of ma'at, which is why he is the one to slay Apep, necessary chaos against meaningless chaos of uncreation. It is true that he killed his brother Osiris, which wasn't very nice of him, but you have to remember that without Osiris going to live in Duat, there would be no vegetation or afterlife. In fact, in the myth of the contending of Horus and Set, Ra is hesitant to choose who will be the pharaoh, because Horus was young and Ra thought of him as being inexperienced, and Set is the one who tipped the scales with Apep, so Ra owed him. But... Horus was the rightful heir. So after many contests and judgments Osiris finally threatened to send up all the evil spirits of Duat up to the world of the gods, and to not let any vegetation grow. So Ra conceded and let Horus be pharaoh.

So Set isn't a god of sunshine and rainbows, but he serves a purpose in most Egyptian myths. Even though it wasn't always a fun role.

 

[Adramelek]

As I understand Mut or Nut was the goddess of the sky by day and night and is the original "Mother goddess". Ma'at is the goddess of Justice, Truth, and Balance, which to me makes Her a vital Magical formulae in the great Work of Life. Set, whose priesthood can be traced back over 5,000 years, was/is the original Prince of Darkness, the god of the Sky by Night. Sets twin god is Horus, the falcon god of the sky by day or the "Face of the Sun". Set shines forth as the Dark Fire or Dark Light which illuminates as the infinite blackness which enfolds the night sky. In the purest form of Egyptian mythololgy Light and Darkness were not seen as rivals, but were equal in principle statis.

 

[ehatsumi]

@Mata: aaaaah, so Set isn't that bad at all, and the slaying of Osiris actually does not show that Set is evil.

@Adramalek: yeah, it's like the ying and yang, everything is in balance, one cannot exist without the other..

thanks for this info guys!

 

[Adramelek]

@Adramalek: yeah, it's like the ying and yang, everything is in balance, one cannot exist without the other..

Yes, ehatsumi, it is very much like the yin and yang which symbolizes the contrast between light and darkness in balance. You are also right, in that within certain esoteric philosophical circles regarding Light and Darkness, there is a common deduction that one (Light and Darkness) cannot exist without the other. This deduction is also contained within the "Book of Coming Forth by Night" in the statement - "And so HarWer/Horus must exist while Set exists." I should, however, point out here that with further study and analysis of the metaphysical and esoteric philosophical implications one can deduce that that original statement from the BoCFbN is not necessarily accurate. That is, though, a whole other thread unto its self.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[gnostic]

" The Ennead were worshipped at Heliopolis and consisted of the god Atum, his children Shu and Tefnut, their children Geb and Nut and their children Osiris, Isis, Set and Nephthys."

That's not completely true.

Yes, the names that wiki listed are the usual names found in the Ennead, in the Heliopolitan myth, but they can vary with different names, which I will explain further, later.

And though, Ennead indicates 9 deities, and it is actually Greek word, "nine" is not the usual number. The actual Egyptian name for the Ennead is Pesedjet, which means "company of gods", with no specific number, so the Heliopolitan Ennead can vary in size, from 8 to 14, as it can be found in different passages of the Pyramid Texts.

Here are the names of the Ennead/Pesedjet found in different passages of the Pyramid Texts:

Re-Atum
Seth
Nephthys
Osiris
Isis
Thoth
Anubis
Dwn-'n.wi (or Horus?)

Atum
Shu
Tefnut
Geb
Nut
Isis
Seth
Nephthys
Thoth
Horus

Atum
Shu
Tefnut
Geb
Nut
Osiris
Isis
Seth
Nephthys

Atum
Shu
Tefnut
Geb
Nut
Osiris
Osiris, Foremost of the Westerners (Khentamentiu)
Seth of Nubet (Kom Ombo)
Horus of Djeb'at (Edfu)
Re
Hnt-irty (Khenty-irty) of Khem
Wadjet

And Mata is right. Egyptian religion is far too complex to pigeonhole it into a single mythology or religion. Different cities have their own set of deities they worshipped, as well as varied over different times.

 

[ehatsumi]

@gnostic

gee thanks for the great list! ^_^