Lying

[savagewind]

Truth is fine and good and there is truth in defining things properly. It is problematic expanding a definition to fit your world view.

A lie is a lie. There are many other ways people twist and manipulate the truth and not all of it is lying understanding that is key to not falling prey to untruths.

I think that I call all the manipulating of the truth lying.

 

[Nous]

Saying something that isn't true, but not knowing it isn't, is perfect proof of the person's willingness to lie.....

Your reasoning is fallacious here. For instance, if you say say, “Yes, my daughter is pregnant; she's due next week,” not knowing that she has just delivered a happy, screamy, healthy baby a week early, and is therefore no longer pregnant and is not due next week, that does not demonstrate any willingness to lie, much less is it “perfect proof” of any willingness to lie.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Good point! But, Jesus was silent instead of lying, I think.

There are indeed times to be silent. Do you think though that 'lying' is always immoral? Intention usually factors into rather an action is ethical or not.

This thread actually raises for me some of the issues with hardlined moral definitions that still drive western culture, especially in the United States.

In the far east you rarely hear about right and wrong, or good versus evil because a dualistic view of the world doesn't form the bedrock of the conversation. You hear instead about skillful and non-skillful. What the action is likely to produce- rather than just the action alone.

The eastern belief in karma obviously ties in with this too...

 

[savagewind]

Your reasoning is fallacious here. For instance, if you say say, “Yes, my daughter is pregnant; she's due next week,” not knowing that she has just delivered a happy, screamy, healthy baby a week early, and is therefore no longer pregnant and is not due next week, that does not demonstrate any willingness to lie, much less is it “perfect proof” of any willingness to lie.

Are you saying that there are daughters who deliver a baby and not tell their mother?

 

[savagewind]

There are indeed times to be silent. Do you think though that 'lying' is always immoral?

I try not to judge. I would call all lying unwise.

Intention usually factors into rather an action is ethical or not.

I don't think that I am talking about ethics. God, no!

This thread actually raises for me some of the issues with hardlined moral definitions that still drive western culture, especially in the United States.

I think I am not talking morals. I am talking logic. To lie breeds lies, imo.

In the far east you rarely hear about right and wrong, or good versus evil because a dualistic view of the world doesn't form the bedrock of the conversation. You hear instead about skillful and non-skillful. What the action is likely to produce- rather than just the action alone.

I bet there is less lying there!

The eastern belief in karma obviously ties in with this too...

Good.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You need to change your defintion

Lying is a person saying something they know isn't true to gain an advantage. It's the to gain an advantage that determines it being bad. No one lies just to lie they lie for a reason.

I think I have encountered someone who was so uncomfortable being themselves that they were only comfortable lying. I think it was a psychological problem.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I would call all lying unwise.

Forgive me, but I would call sticking to one's guns in all situations no matter what unwise. Treating actions apart from results is acting with one eye closed.

I don't think that I am talking about ethics. God, no!

If this is about lying being good or bad, we're discussing ethics.

To lie breeds lies, imo.

Not necessarily. Again: should lying even be as broad a term as English treats it?

I bet there is less lying there!

If there is, it's not because of some idea that actions apart from results is something to make judgments about.

 

[bobhikes]

I think that I call all the manipulating of the truth lying.

That's your view.

Two statements contradictory where is the lie or falsehood. Yet are either really the Truth.

Guns don't kill, people do.

Guns don't die, children do.

You have omission and bias in statements and this can just be from a lack of knowledge. Say you watch only Fox News you would most likely issue many biased statements supported by fact. These are not lies.

 

[BSM1]

Most people who I have seen speak of lying say it is lying only if the person is saying something that he or she knows isn't true.

And, I am tending to agree with that conclusion.

BUT

Saying something that isn't true, but not knowing it isn't, is perfect proof of the person's willingness to lie..... subconscious though it might be.

Let's say that every mind is actually just a part of one mind. Then, a person's willingness to lie supports the liars' lies.

If a person will speak what isn't true without knowing, why is lying knowingly bad? It isn't!

I'd be lying is I said that I would have to agree to disagree with you.

Does this kilt make me look fat?

Uhhh..oh, look ...a squirrel!

 

[bobhikes]

I think I have encountered someone who was so uncomfortable being themselves that they were only comfortable lying. I think it was a psychological problem.

They are gaining an advantage of comfort. When you lie to your spouse to avoid their emotions it is an advantage to you.

 

[savagewind]

Forgive me, but I would call sticking to one's guns in all situations no matter what unwise. Treating actions apart from results is acting with one eye closed.

I don't call living by the truth "sticking to one's guns". I think that usually lying is the lazy way out or in.

If this is about lying being good or bad, we're discussing ethics.

It is about "good" lying breeding "bad" lying.

 

[savagewind]

I'd be lying is I said that I would have to agree to disagree with you.




Uhhh..oh, look ...a squirrel!

IF. LOL

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Saying something that isn't true, but not knowing it isn't, is perfect proof of the person's willingness to lie..... subconscious though it might be.

I have one client who had a severe mental meltdown brought on by extreme stress, fatigue, anxiety, and working more than what they human body can handle. When this meltdown occured, some of his anxious worries manifested, in his mind, as an image of god showing him what will happen in the future (things that are happening, such as pharmaceuticals ending up in the water supply after they have passed through us or we flush them), and he took a picture that he believes reveals the image of Jesus. From his perspective, he isn't lying and treatment will revolve around him focusing less on the doomsday visions. It doesn't reflect a willingness to lie, however.

Lying is a person saying something they know isn't true to gain an advantage. It's the to gain an advantage that determines it being bad. No one lies just to lie they lie for a reason.

Sometimes there is no advantage to a lie, but yet sometimes people still do it (kids can especially fall in this category).

 

[Nous]

Are you saying that there are daughters who deliver a baby and not tell their mother?

No, I didn't say anything even vaguely resembling that. Read my post again.

 

[savagewind]

There is another aspect of communication that I can consider lying.

Being silent when the best course is to just tell the truth.

An example.

A married couple's sex life is diminished in the opinion of one mate. The reason might be that the other mate is addicted to pornography but will not talk about it. Not talking about it is lying, imo.

 

[savagewind]

I have one client who had a severe mental meltdown brought on by extreme stress, fatigue, anxiety, and working more than what they human body can handle. When this meltdown occured, some of his anxious worries manifested, in his mind, as an image of god showing him what will happen in the future (things that are happening, such as pharmaceuticals ending up in the water supply after they have passed through us or we flush them), and he took a picture that he believes reveals the image of Jesus. From his perspective, he isn't lying and treatment will revolve around him focusing less on the doomsday visions. It doesn't reflect a willingness to lie, however.

Sometimes there is no advantage to a lie, but yet sometimes people still do it (kids can especially fall in this category).

I think he really saw Jesus. But, trying to take a picture of him was foolish and sad imo.

 

[savagewind]

No, I didn't say anything even vaguely resembling that. Read my post again.

Your reasoning is fallacious here. For instance, if you say say, “Yes, my daughter is pregnant; she's due next week,” not knowing that she has just delivered a happy, screamy, healthy baby a week early, and is therefore no longer pregnant and is not due next week, that does not demonstrate any willingness to lie, much less is it “perfect proof” of any willingness to lie.

It would be lying if the mother knew that the baby was already born. If she didn't know (which is really and truly sad) then it wouldn't be a lie. I believe that every baby comes with a due date in my country. So, if the mother was repeating what someone told her about when the baby was due to be delivered, it wouldn't be a lie.

 

[Nous]

It would be lying if the mother knew that the baby was already born. If she didn't know (which is really and truly sad) then it wouldn't be a lie. I believe that every baby comes with a due date in my country. So, if the mother was repeating what someone told her about when the baby was due to be delivered, it wouldn't be a lie.

In the scenario I gave, the woman stated what was true to the best of her knowledge. To state what is true to the best of one's knowledge does not demonstrate a "willingness to lie," much less is it "perfect proof" of a willingness to lie.

 

[savagewind]

In the scenario I gave, the woman stated what was true to the best of her knowledge. To state what is true to the best of one's knowledge does not demonstrate a "willingness to lie," much less is it "perfect proof" of a willingness to lie.

It is a willingness to lie. If it is something that can be known, (the daughter gave birth already), but the woman did not care to know and so said what she thought was true, it is a lie. Do people think that I am saying it is a bad thing? I am not. It is unwise. A wise mother knows about the birth of her grandchild. She just does!

 

[savagewind]

Wisdom does not equal good.

Not wise does not equal bad.

OK?