Luke 10:22, Jesus as a mediator

[punkdbass]

"...no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

This is a pretty powerful verse that I'm sure is used, among others, to support the doctrine that Jesus is the mediator between one and God, and that only through Jesus can one know God or come to Him.

So my question for debate is: how then did the saints/righteous ones of the Hebrew Bible "know" God? They most certainly did not know Jesus, rather they worshiped the God that revealed Himself to Israel at Mt. Sinai.. but apparently they knew God enough to be resurrected in Matthew 27:52, and be praised all throughout scripture. How did they know and come to God without having Jesus as a mediator?

So if we can agree that the "Old testament" saints knew God without having Jesus as a mediator, then what exactly is the meaning of Luke 10:22??

 

[Sleeppy]

The OT saints always had a mediator. Whether it was an Angel/Messenger or the Holy Spirit being measured out to a prophet.

 

[punkdbass]

Interesting. So do you believe one in today's age can know God through the Holy Spirit(without the need for Jesus) as the Old Testament Saints did?

It would make sense to me that God's Holy Spirit could work through the lives of people from all sorts of faiths, thus helping them to directly or even indirectly know God. Good post.

 

[InChrist]

"...no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

This is a pretty powerful verse that I'm sure is used, among others, to support the doctrine that Jesus is the mediator between one and God, and that only through Jesus can one know God or come to Him.

So my question for debate is: how then did the saints/righteous ones of the Hebrew Bible "know" God? They most certainly did not know Jesus, rather they worshiped the God that revealed Himself to Israel at Mt. Sinai.. but apparently they knew God enough to be resurrected in Matthew 27:52, and be praised all throughout scripture. How did they know and come to God without having Jesus as a mediator?

So if we can agree that the "Old testament" saints knew God without having Jesus as a mediator, then what exactly is the meaning of Luke 10:22??

I believe the OT saints knew God directly in some cases and through the words of the prophets and by believing God's promise of the coming Messiah and Savior. Their faith in the promised Messiah was accounted as righteousness even though at the time they did not know His name which was later revealed as Jesus.

 

[Sleeppy]

Interesting. So do you believe one in today's age can know God through the Holy Spirit(without the need for Jesus) as the Old Testament Saints did?

It would make sense to me that God's Holy Spirit could work through the lives of people from all sorts of faiths, thus helping them to directly or even indirectly know God. Good post.

The Gospels say Jesus is the one who sends/baptizes with the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that God gives to whomever He chooses, no matter what or who they think they are. The Spirit reveals certain things to certain people at certain times. I may not have what the Spirit reveals to you, and you may not have what the Spirit reveals to me, but that may be so things can be confirmed only with one another.

 

[punkdbass]

The Gospels say Jesus is the one who sends/baptizes with the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that God gives to whomever He chooses, no matter what or who they think they are. The Spirit reveals certain things to certain people at certain times. I may not have what the Spirit reveals to you, and you may not have what the Spirit reveals to me, but that may be so things can be confirmed only with one another.

Interesting, this makes a lot of practical sense to me. The only Christian to ever explain the trinity in a way that I somewhat understood said that God(The Father) uses both Jesus and the Holy spirit to bring about salvation in mankind. He put emphasis on the fact that a lot of Christians overlook or downplay the importance of the Holy Spirit and its power to help bring about salvation in mankind.

Anyhow, this makes a lot of practical sense to me.. because obviously Christians arent the only ones trying to make the world a better place. So it would only make sense to me(from a Christian P.O.V) that God could still use the Holy Spirit through non-Christians to help bring about salvation in mankind -- for example, He would use His Holy Spirit through righteous Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, humanists, etc who pursue acts of charity, justice, and compassion.

 

[Me Myself]

When you feed the hungry you are meeting God through Jesus Christ and I would certainly say you are acting with Holy Spirit.

Be you atheist, agnostic, buddhist, wannabist or thatotherist.

 

[james2ko]

"...no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

This is a pretty powerful verse that I'm sure is used, among others, to support the doctrine that Jesus is the mediator between one and God, and that only through Jesus can one know God or come to Him.

So my question for debate is: how then did the saints/righteous ones of the Hebrew Bible "know" God? They most certainly did not know Jesus, rather they worshiped the God that revealed Himself to Israel at Mt. Sinai.. but apparently they knew God enough to be resurrected in Matthew 27:52, and be praised all throughout scripture. How did they know and come to God without having Jesus as a mediator?

So if we can agree that the "Old testament" saints knew God without having Jesus as a mediator, then what exactly is the meaning of Luke 10:22??

That God was actually Christ--not the Father (1cor 10:1-4).

 

[Jesus Pipes]

I thought I had read some debate about Jesus actually being the angel that appeared in the burning bush. Is it possible that Jesus was always the mediator, even before his physical birth?

 

[Pegg]

"...no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

This is a pretty powerful verse that I'm sure is used, among others, to support the doctrine that Jesus is the mediator between one and God, and that only through Jesus can one know God or come to Him.

So my question for debate is: how then did the saints/righteous ones of the Hebrew Bible "know" God? They most certainly did not know Jesus, rather they worshiped the God that revealed Himself to Israel at Mt. Sinai.. but apparently they knew God enough to be resurrected in Matthew 27:52, and be praised all throughout scripture. How did they know and come to God without having Jesus as a mediator?

So if we can agree that the "Old testament" saints knew God without having Jesus as a mediator, then what exactly is the meaning of Luke 10:22??

I believe it means from that time onward, the way to know and understand God is through Jesus. prior to this time, the only way to know and understand God was through his chosen representatives...Noah, Moses, Joshua, King David/Solomon, the prophets

all these men lived at different times, if you lived in Noahs days, you would only learn about God through Noah, if you lived in Moses days it would be through him and so on

After Jesus arrived, the way to approach God has been through Jesus by means of the new covenant that he inaugurated with his 12 apostles.

 

[Bob Dixon]

I believe it means from that time onward, the way to know and understand God is through Jesus. prior to this time, the only way to know and understand God was through his chosen representatives...Noah, Moses, Joshua, King David/Solomon, the prophets

all these men lived at different times, if you lived in Noahs days, you would only learn about God through Noah, if you lived in Moses days it would be through him and so on

After Jesus arrived, the way to approach God has been through Jesus by means of the new covenant that he inaugurated with his 12 apostles.

If this is true, then what about the rest of the world at the time of Moses, Noah, etc? How would the Indians and the Chinese and the Australians and the Pygmies have known about God? Would they have been abandoned simply because they're not Jewish?

 

[Pegg]

If this is true, then what about the rest of the world at the time of Moses, Noah, etc? How would the Indians and the Chinese and the Australians and the Pygmies have known about God? Would they have been abandoned simply because they're not Jewish?

the scriptures tell us that all these ones who did not have the opportunity to know God will be resurrected and given the same opportunity as those who lived after jesus time.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

this teaching of Jesus is in harmony with the prophets of old who spoke of the time when all the dead would be brought back to life:

Isaiah 26:19 “Your dead ones will live. A corpse of mine—they will rise up. Awake and cry out joyfully, YOU residents in the dust! For your dew is as the dew of mallows, and the earth itself will let even those impotent in death drop [in birth].

Hosea 13:14 “From the hand of She′ol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them. Where are your stings, O Death? Where is your destructiveness, O She′ol?

Daniel 12:1 “And during that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people....2 And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life

John 11:25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life.

 

[sincerly]

"...no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

This is a pretty powerful verse that I'm sure is used, among others, to support the doctrine that Jesus is the mediator between one and God, and that only through Jesus can one know God or come to Him.

So my question for debate is: how then did the saints/righteous ones of the Hebrew Bible "know" God? They most certainly did not know Jesus, rather they worshiped the God that revealed Himself to Israel at Mt. Sinai.. but apparently they knew God enough to be resurrected in Matthew 27:52, and be praised all throughout scripture. How did they know and come to God without having Jesus as a mediator?

So if we can agree that the "Old testament" saints knew God without having Jesus as a mediator, then what exactly is the meaning of Luke 10:22??

Hi Punkdbass, First let's look at what message Luke10:17-24 is giving.
"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]. And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see: For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them]."

Jesus had sent the seventy into every city and place which HE would come--- to teach the truths given to them from the OT/ The FATHER. "The Kingdom of GOD is come nigh unto you"; "Heal the sick".
They returned with Joy and Jesus thanked the Father for their success in proclaiming "the kingdom is come".

There wasn't any "Mediation" as you indicated. The
1) one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant
2) a medium of communication, arbitrator


That is seen in other verses: "Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made ; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator3316."

For [there is] one God, and one mediator3316 between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So by what, was the OT saints Saved, since Jesus had not come to them in person?
Jesus was the promised "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world" and Heb.11 declares it was by FAITH(in that promised Redeemer) that they and us will be able to stand before GOD atoned for by Jesus christ.

 

[Me Myself]

If you love people the way Jesus loved us all, then you know Jesus way better than someone who has "faith" in that he was a carpenter born 2000 years ago from a virgin mother.

 

[sincerly]

If you love people the way Jesus loved us all, then you know Jesus way better than someone who has "faith" in that he was a carpenter born 2000 years ago from a virgin mother.

Hi Me Myself, That "Faith" went back to Moses and all the Prophets as Jesus after HIS Resurrection finished the Disciples education by opening their understanding to all that was prophesied in the Scriptures concerning HIMSELF. Luke 24:27, 44-48.

That Crucufixion upon the Cross was evidence of HIS LOVE FOR ALL.

 

[Green Kepi]

If this is true, then what about the rest of the world at the time of Moses, Noah, etc? How would the Indians and the Chinese and the Australians and the Pygmies have known about God? Would they have been abandoned simply because they're not Jewish?

Romans 2:14 answers this question and this type of salvation is what the whole book of Jonah is about....

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Bob Dixon
If this is true, then what about the rest of the world at the time of Moses, Noah, etc? How would the Indians and the Chinese and the Australians and the Pygmies have known about God? Would they have been abandoned simply because they're not Jewish?

Romans 2:14 answers this question and this type of salvation is what the whole book of Jonah is about....

Hi Green Kepi; Just an additional comment and to answer Bob a tiny bit better.
There are those who had rather one not add the context for their answer. In this case, the continuance of the answer is in Rom.1:17-20, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

All of Mankind came from the creation of Adam and Eve. All who were on the ARK knew of the saving Creator GOD. ALL who were Scatter throughout the earth from Babel were aware of the Creator GOD. ALL began to make "gods" which reflected their own desires. God began to bring back mankind with Abraham.

Vs1:28 reflects the consequences. "And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; "

Jewishness had nothing to do with their own choice "not to retain".