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Lucky Guesses???

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Walkntune, Mar 6, 2010.

  1. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess
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    Hi Walkntune, all the verses that I have seen are very ambiguous. It seems a bit of a reach to assume they refer to atoms or what not. I am sure, however, that the ancients had some scientific knowledge. We can see this in their architecture, for instance. And just have a look at Hindu cosmology which is far older than Christianity. There is definitely evidence of impressive knowledge around the world in ancient times. Is that proof of Divinity? I don't think so personally.
     
  2. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    Well, as a matter of fact I'm famous for doing my own thinking and exploring (it ticks people off sometimes that I won't take anybody's word for anything without checking their facts), but I'm not a scientist. I draw heavily from the well because it's part of the process of doing my own thinking and exploring, but I add nothing to it.

    I apologize for the sarcasm - it's not directed at you, but at the person who wrote that stuff you're quoting. I don't have much patience for that kind of thing.
     
  3. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    Well I forgive you and don't mean any hostility. I was only looking for opinions and now you have shared yours!:)
     
  4. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    Yes I can see where some of it seems to have a little manipulation to an intended meaning but some sounds very coincidental also like this

    Job 38:16 tells us there are springs in the sea (this was not known until 1913 when they found underground rivers)

    Job 38:16 (King James Version)


    6Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
     
  5. Beyondo

    Beyondo Active Member

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  6. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess
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    Firstly, is this particular english translation more recent than 1913? And in what context is it written (ie/ what is the overall message of the passage and how do sea springs fit into it metaphorically)?
     
  7. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    Job 38:16 (King James Version)

    6Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

    So can you interpret this to what you actually think it means if the mention of springs of the sea is just by chance?
     
  8. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    I do take a lot of scripture metaphorically but this one I can't see that way???It is written in context of God describing some of his methods of creation to Job.

    And the scripture was completed in 1611(300 yrs earlier)
     
    #28 Walkntune, Mar 7, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  9. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    Sure have. :)

    Something to think about:


    "The ancient Hebrews imagined the world as flat and round [disk], covered by the great solid dome of the firmament which was held up by mountain pillars, (Job 26:11; 37:18). The blue color of the sky was attributed to the chaotic waters that the firmament separated from the earth (Gen. 1:7). The earth was thus surrounded by waters above and below (Gen. 1:6,7; cf. Psalms 24:2; 148:4, Deut. 5:8). The firmament was thought to be substantial; it had pillars (Job 26:11) and foundations (2 Sam. 22:8). When the windows of it were opened, rain fell (Gen. 7:11-12; 8:2). The sun, moon, and stars moved across or were fixed in the firmament (Gen. 1:14-19; Ps. 19:4,6). It was also the abode of the birds (Gen. 1:20; Deut. 4:17). Within the earth lay Sheol, the realm of the dead (Num. 16:30-33; Isa. 14:9,15)."

    ~Harper's Bible Dictionary

    Should we discuss these claims too?
     
  10. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a manipulation of intended meaning to me because only 4 verses back it says he suspends the earth on nothing. The science of that day still believed it was on a turtle!

    Job 26

    7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
    he suspends the earth over nothing.


    I am going to search the rest
     
    #30 Walkntune, Mar 7, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  11. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    Would you mind linking to your source? That doesn't even make sense without the formatting of the original. Maybe it doesn't make sense there either, but I wouldn't mind checking.

    Edit: ah, here we go:

    http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scienceconfirmsthebible.shtml

    That's pretty weak.

    Isaiah 40:22
    It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.

    Jeremiah 33:22
    As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

    Etc.
     
    #31 Alceste, Mar 7, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  12. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess
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    Oh ok, so it is the same translation for all English Bibles.
    I just don't understand how the sea springs are related to the next question about searching in depth. What does that mean? How are the two connected in meaning?
     
  13. johnhanks

    johnhanks Well-Known Member

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    Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch from "underground rivers" to "springs in the sea"? This is clutching at straws. The author of Job had no idea how the sea came to be there; conjuring up springs in the sea-bed as the source of the water must have seemed reasonable at the time.

    The passage you quote continues:
    This sums up the flawed nature of the whole piece. Firstly, it is by no means clear that the Ecclesiastes quote is referring to ocean currents as we understand them: rather its author seems to be trying to solve the conundrum of why the sea doesn't keep rising even though rivers constantly flow into it - 'the water goes somewhere else'. Secondly, people will have known there were currents in the ocean for as long as they had sailed on it - well before the ca. 250 BCE date of Ecclesiastes; the implication that Maury's charting of Atlantic winds and currents somehow depended on the bible mentioning them is spurious.

    The whole article is an exercise in quote-mining and wishful thinking.
     
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  14. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    Job 38:16 (Amplified Bible)

    16Have you explored the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in the recesses of the deep?
    I believe its talking about holes and cracks in the earth???
     
  15. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    I agree some of the meanings sound manipulated in the article.
     
  16. Alceste

    Alceste Vagabond

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    The question you ought to be asking yourself is, what is it talking about when it mentions the "doors" that hold the sea back from overflowing in the same passage? Or the "foundation" of the earth? You should be asking yourself why that particular sentence has particular significance, when if you read it in context it isn't any more or less significant than any of the other sentences.

    That means the significance is man-made. Either you or somebody else has picked it out from all the others for some reason that is not evident in the text. What could that reason be?
     
  17. Beyondo

    Beyondo Active Member

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    Explain please.
     
  18. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    6Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea?
    Wondering what this possibly means!
     
  19. fantome profane

    fantome profane Keep safe, and keep your neighbours safe.
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    I am curious how you would react if this claim had been made on behalf of another religion or a different holy book. How would you respond for example if someone claimed that Hinduism or Taoism had made claims about the nature of the world that are only now being confirmed by advanced physics? Would such arguments make you more likely to believe that these religions are true or valid?
     
  20. Walkntune

    Walkntune Well-Known Member

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    Job 26

    7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
    he suspends the earth over nothing.

    I don't read the scriptures for what the appear on the surface.
    What you wrote mentions the foundation of the earth and Job 26 says God hangs the earth on nothing. Obviously foundation has a different meaning then a structure holding up the earth.
     
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