1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Lucifer?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by jewscout, Feb 28, 2005.

  1. angel888

    angel888 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    Come on Jewscout you know better than that, you are a Jew who believes in God and the Commandments. You are familiar with Job and the many other prophets in the OT who dealt with Satan.

    Misinterpretation by whom..? Good and evil , God and the Devil are throughout the whole bible and the Torah or the Old convenant.

    Thank you for your responses, however I see no need to continue this discussion.

    Angel
     
  2. angel888

    angel888 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    MasterVigil

    I see no need to define evil, since you have done a great job of it with your response's and so called views.

    However it is popular view and fact that Christians do not worship other Gods.

    Lucifer/Satanism is dealing with other forces or Gods, Christians do not serve anyone other than Christ or the Godhead.

    Again, this is turning into a semantics and it is getting ugly, which is not very Christian or Human.

    Angel
     
  3. angel888

    angel888 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    BTW MasterVigil, You pratice TAO .????

    As long as a deed stands to contribute to the path to enlightenment it is "good."



    Angel
     
  4. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    Yes i may be that but i'm not going to say that some force other than HaShem and my own free will has any power over my choices...The satan can influence me but i can choose to take the higher road. The satan is an angel and the teaching of the Rambam show us that only two beings have free will, HaShem and man, therefore, The satan nor any other ministering angel has the ability to do anything w/o His say so...
    Reread Job, in every instance The satan had to get permission to do anything to Job...that's not a rival...that's a grunt

    Early christian theologians i imagine...much like the mistranslation on the Moshiach being born of a young girl, not a virgin...

    G-d yes....the Devil? not so much
    The only times The satan has come up in our Torah study since Simchat Torah the context shows that we are dealing either with the king of babylon or the Angel doing his alotted task
    Not a guy from Paradise Lost or Dante's Inferno...
     
  5. angel888

    angel888 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    Jewscout,

    Serpent-----------------------------Genesis 3:1-14

    Lucifer------------------------------Isaiah 14:12

    Cherub------------------------------Ezekiel 28:14

    Energized David-----------------1 Chronicles 21:1

    Afflicted Job----------------------Job1:7-2:10


    I agree with you with regard to how Satan can tempt us and we can resist, you are correct.

    He tempts us all the time, we can choose God over him because with God all things are possible. And yes its our choice it is our free will which God gave us. We choose Good over evil to serve God or the Serpent.

    Thanks
    Angel
     
  6. angel888

    angel888 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    Jewscout, the following is a statement from a Satanist on this Forum.

    Quote: Anatasp said:The Traditional Satanist looks at Satan or Lucifer as a "Father Figure" and idolize him in that capacity. Also called Theistic Satanism or Luciferianism



    Angel
     
  7. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    Well if you were to be the antithesis of Christianity wouldn't you choose the figure that the Church made into "the bad guy?". Doesn't mean that the majority of Jewish scholars would place a proactive force on the same level as HaShem, it would sort of defeat the point of Monotheism.
    From what i can tell the modern concept of "Satan" is a christian concept...
    The Jewish concept, written in things like the Kabbalah and by commentators, is much different than that of the christian concept....
     
  8. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    Also i've been of the experience that christians have come on here calling me an anti-christ, some telling me that i'm living in death under my commandments...

    Is every christian like that?
     
  9. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    "MasterVigil

    I see no need to define evil, since you have done a great job of it with your response's and so called views."

    While I see this as a hilarious comment. It is not allowed. Please abstain from the insults.

    Yes Angel. Tao. Why do you not know about it? Perhaps you should do some research.
     
  10. angel888

    angel888 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    Jewscout, Live under the Commandments., let no one decieve you, Gods laws were never done away with. For that is what Faith is and what the OT and NT are soley about. Faith and obedience. And since your beliefs are with the OT or Torah ask God for help in soul searching. The ones that claim the commandments do not save you or get you into heaven are misinterpreting the Bible. Let me re-phrase, Grace or Faith saves us , its what we do with this Faith that we obtain Heaven. Faith is also an action toward God. The Catholics and mainstream denominationals all agree on the word of God which is Faith and commandment keeping. Remember, with God all things are possible.

    You say people title you the anit-christ. No,! you are not the anit-christ, there have been many in history and many more to come. Keep searching your Heart and ask God for the answers. He will be there for you.

    Angel,
    BTW I have 3 warnings so I may be banned soon from this forum. Thats ok, I said what I had to in defense of God and the gospels.
     
  11. angel888

    angel888 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    Master Vigil: I have studied some Tao.! and read some of your responses and views to others, that is why I insulted you above, which I apologize for.



    "The wise man hears of the Word (Tao) and practices it diligently; ...

    " The First teaching of the Tao is universal love."




    Angel
     
  12. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,780
    Ratings:
    +1,925
    Your warnings have nothing to do with your defending your faith, but rather you continue to completely disregard the Forum Rules
     
  13. angel888

    angel888 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    Its seems the rules only apply to some, I responded in the Atheist forums, and got warned.


    You have Atheist responding to Christian views,(- example the Trinity, Godhead, bible , etc, I dont see them getting warned. Posters of different theologies are resopnding to various sects of different denominations.

    The reason is we discuss compare and debate our differences.

    It seems every thread I respond to I get a warning without a valid reason .

    "It must have Christian, Christ, etc., in it"

    Well the Atheist are asking and debating Christians.!

    I feel it's my faith views you do not agree with or want displayed.

    Thank You.
    Angel
     
  14. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,780
    Ratings:
    +1,925
    Angel: I don't care what you believe as long as you are following the Forum Rules. Please read my response to one of your other rants on this issue for an explantion of why you were warned for your post in the Atheist forum. And please, please READ THE FORUM RULES!
     
  15. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    "The wise man hears of the Word (Tao) and practices it diligently; ...

    " The First teaching of the Tao is universal love."


    Very good. But those are only little itty bitty pieces of taoist literature. And the second isn't complete. The first teaching of tao isn't universal love, it is universal peace. There is a difference. A taoist understands that love is only one side to the tao. While hate also is another side. We stray from the extremes and find peace in the middle. Balance is the first teaching of the Tao.
     
  16. DianeVera

    DianeVera Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    Messages:
    148
    Ratings:
    +12
    Indeed in the Book of Job, "ha-satan" is portrayed as a servant of the Biblical God, not as his enemy or rival. However, "ha-satan" doesn't ask permission to do anything to Job. Rather, the Biblical God is portrayed as the one who instigates everything. The Biblical God is the one who brings up the subject of Job, asks "ha-satan" his opinion, then tells "ha-satan" to act on said opinion.
     
  17. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    9,497
    Ratings:
    +927
    G-d brings up the subject of Job because...
    Now the day came about That day which was Rosh Hashanah, (known as a day of sounding the shofar, and the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded the Adversary to bring the merit and the guilt of all creatures. This is the meaning of “from going to and fro on the earth.”)

    “From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it.” So is my wont to go to and fro, to see the evil ones and the good ones. Now I went to and fro throughout the entire earth and I did not find anyone like Abraham, about whom it is said (Gen. 13:17): “Rise, go to and fro in the land.” The Sages of blessed memory (Baba Bathra 16a) said that the Adversary meant this for the sake of Heaven, in order that Abraham’s merit not be forgotten by our G-d.

    Then G-d brings up Job because, Rashi says, He felt that The satan was denouncing this righteous man...
    http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16403&showrashi=true

    basically The satan is saying it is easy for Job to be righteous because he has not been as tested as others have...then HaShem tells The satan to basically do his job...test Job
    If you look at it from the standpoint that The satan is the one who tests us as opposed to a christian concept of a being who is trying to destroy us it makes sense that HaShem instructs The satan to perform his designed task which, apparently, he feels HaShem has not allowed him to do on Job...
    Just a thought i could be wrong...
     
  18. Lostinthisworld

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    60
    Ratings:
    +3
    Is the question about lucifer or satan ?
    satan means adversary
    lucifer means venus or morning star or son of the morning
    Isaiah 14 : 12 states lucifer or morning star to be a bad being
    Revelation 22 : 16 Jesus states that he is the morning star
    SO WHY DOES EVERYONE REFER TO LUCIFER AND SATAN AS THE SAME THING?
     
Loading...