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Featured Lucifer, the “Good Guy” calling out God's bull****.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Twilight Hue, Nov 27, 2022.

  1. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Registered People sTabber

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    But yet he made a system his own son said many would fail. Seems to me if we were important and loved by him then we wouldn't be so guilty that even our thoughts can be sinful.
    Seems to me more like he's just itching for an excuse to condemn us.
     
  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Registered People sTabber

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    I bring up books about Lucifer as well.
    The Revelation of Lucifer the Divine by Quentin Pierson
    But it's far more easier than that. Satan is am angel of Yahweh, Christians entirely and completely reinvented him into a devil and an adversary of Jehovah, and a translation error put Lucifer in their when it shouldn't be.
     
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  3. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The Jews of Jesus' day reveal what they believed in their discussion with Jesus:

    Mark 3:22-27
    New International Version

    22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

    23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house.
     
  4. Ella S.

    Ella S. Well-Known Member

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    Yahweh causes more harm than Satan does and demonstrates more of the 7 deadly sins. Yahweh openly admits to being jealous and wrathful, while pridefully declaring himself the greatest being and the ultimate authority on everything. He has a higher body count and, if we take his inflated claims about being the creator of the earth at face value rather than the hubristic bragging of a war deity, he is directly responsible for the majority of suffering, disease, death, drought, starvation, and natural disaster humanity has ever faced.

    However, Satan tortured Job and slaughtered the first-born Egyptians, which are not excusable actions. These are only what he is shown to do directly but, from elsewhere in the book, we can infer that he was behind much of the tribal warfare in ancient Mesopotamia, including human sacrifices. We also hear from Jesus, perhaps not a reliable source, that Satan intentionally tries to get people to commit terrible acts including acts of horrific violence and cruel sadism specifically to get them in trouble with Yahweh and thrown into Hell.

    (ETA: Satan also tried to persuade Jesus into becoming a tyrannical dictator of the world! I forgot about that. That's really evil, too.)

    Either one would make a terrifying antagonist of a Lovecraftian monster story.
     
    #64 Ella S., Nov 29, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2022
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  5. Ella S.

    Ella S. Well-Known Member

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    "Lucifer" was a title that some Gnostic sects gave to Sophia because she was seen as the bringer of enlightenment. Other Christians accused the Gnostics of worshiping the devil, calling it "Luciferianism."

    Then they went back and cherry-picked verses about the morning star, which is called Lucifer in Latin, and reinterpreted them to be about Satan to support this persecution.
     
  6. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Crow FreyjasmaðR

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    In those myths, observe that nothing can be done without the express order of Yahweh. Angels don't have free will.
     
  7. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    :) But, you are.

    Ok... you have made multiple statements that can only be viewed as opinion as you haven't supported any position you have made.

    When God said to Adam, "You will die" - Die is plural. Why and what does it mean.

    Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

    Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    You will have to do better than that.

    But you haven't supported anything ;)

    Hmmm... nope. Who wrote Acts. And who wrote 2 Peter?

    Again... you still haven't supported your position. Please don't just give opinions... :)


    sooo.....


    what exactly put a burr under your saddle?
     
  8. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    I've never heard of Sophia; can you tell me more about Sophia as the bringer of enlightenment?
     
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  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, when humans stepped away from doing what God had said we certainly made everything harder for ourselves and ended up in a place where nobody is able to be morally perfect and so in the end must trust in God and His forgiveness and not in our own goodness.
    But it is humanity that did that to ourselves.
    It is a good thing God does not want to condemn us and so sent Jesus as a saviour and tells us we can trust in God for forgiveness because Jesus has been condemned in our place.
     
  10. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    Because Lucifer is the Roman personification of the planet Venus, and the Germanic figure Ostara and English name Eostre appeared as Easter, did Hindus ever have a Lucifer similar to the Romans, Germans, and English?
     
  11. The Sum of Awe

    The Sum of Awe Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.

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    It seems like Yahweh and Zeus were refined to become more moral over time, their original personas shown clearly toxic traits, akin to the poor moral wisdom human cultures had earlier in time. And even still, to this day both appear pretty bad unless you can excuse their actions with “the ends justify the means” morality, which 1) doesn’t make sense with an omnipotent and omniscient deity. and 2) doesn’t make sense considering a lot of these actions Yahweh or Zeus has taken really only had “ends” that suited a selfish agenda.

    There were no ends that justified Zeus’s rape. There were no ends that justified Yahweh’s treatment of Job, or his flooding of the Earth.
     
  12. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Crow FreyjasmaðR

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    Must have been why I used the analogy of a forge, but okay.

    We're not talking about Adam. We're talking about your misuse of the "wages of sin" saying, and trying to claim it as some legally binding clause that would have allowed "Satan" to kill Jesus if he sinned.

    This is the foundation of the ecclesiastical policy regarding spiritual death should one die a mortal death and not be saved. Despite their protests and fervent disagreement with the Catholic church, Protestants have not left this principle behind, and continue to hinge "salvation" on it. By belief, death entered the world (though was subsequently (conditionally) conquered by Jesus' sacrifice) through the First Sin, yet the "wages of sin" - what you earn through sinning - is spiritual death.

    Using modern translations that utilize Middle English words (devil, from Old English deofol, Late Latin (200-600 CE) diabolus) doesn't really make for a strong counter-case of the original language used for that gospel. You will have to do better than that. Additionally the Late Latin diabolus means "slanderer", so really it doesn't have anything to do with unclean spirits.

    I have given you the meanings of satan (שָׂטָן) and Satan (Ha-Satan: הַשָּׂטָן). Your refusal to accept these terms, what they mean, and the fact that their use was confused in translation, does not mean it has not been supported.

    Irrelevant. Paul, as a Gentile, did not understand the culture of which he was spreading and writing about, and from there came many contradictions and theological problems that are inherent and evident in the text. To say nothing of the centuries-long fact that these "revelations" are not accepted by the very people from whom these beliefs are appropriated.

    Then please, do show us where Paul received his authority from the Apostles beyond a claim that he made.

    --------------------------------------

    I honestly could not say. I know little and less of Hinduism, but I would not be surprised if they had a divine figure of the dawn and dusk.
     
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  13. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I would like Satanists here to answer this question.
    What do you think Satan looks like?
    Because Dante in his Divine Comedy describes him in detail, and he looks like something like this

    [​IMG]

    Is that the creature you worship?
     
    #73 Estro Felino, Nov 30, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  14. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    Sorry... but you make no sense at all.

    Show me where Paul was a Gentile.
     
  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Is that all that you got from that post? I guess that you had no answer to the rest of it.

    As to Paul. His case was a complicated one. He had a Roman father, which by their rules made him Roman. He had a Jewish mother, which by Jewish rules made him Jewish. But most important of all he identified as a Jew so I would agree with your implication that he was not a Gentile.
     
  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Why do you say he had a Roman father?
    He was a Roman citizen because he was born in Tarsus, a Roman city, but I have never heard that he had a Roman father.
     
  17. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You gave the answer yourself. Paul was a Roman. He was a Roman citizen. That would have been passed down through his father.
     
  18. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    Coming into a conversation at the very end and then making a judgment call on the last sentence without context or history....

    Well.....

    I have no answer for you either. :)
     
  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    It's an interesting idea to think about.
    It's a question I've often asked myself, indeed.

    Purely in context of the story, the devil / satan / lucifer indeed tends to remind me of this guy:

    upload_2022-11-30_13-29-23.png

    Then there's also the idea of god engaging in the indiscriminate killing of millions according to the lore, at one point even 99.99% of all living things. While Satan kills like what, 10 people? And when he did that it was even with god's blessing to make a narcistic point on god's behalf.

    I've always felt that God is depicted like some kind of Great Leader of a celestial North Korea, with Lucifer being his second in command who rises up against the Great Leader's cruelty in a fight that he could never hope to win. Some kind of ultimate form of sacrificial altruism.

    There are MANY points in the christian lore where god orders his followers to go on genocidal and infanticidal rampages, of capturing young virgins as slaves as some kind of war booty, etc.
    And while the bible is full of how lucifer supposedly "tempts" people to do evil... I don't think he once invited anyone to go on killing sprees or rape or torture or what have you. The "tempting" seems to be nothing more then "think for yourself, don't listen to this narcistic petty dictator"


    So I think certainly a case could be made, quite easily at times, of how Lucifer indeed is the "good guy" standing up to a narcistic and petty all powerful dictator in a fight he can't ever hope to win.

    Almost as if the grand moral of the entire thing is "might makes right" and lucifer is only the "bad guy" because he stands up to someone more powerful then him.
     
  20. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Just out of interest. Why do you say that?
    What specifically makes lucifer evil in your opinion?

    Not saying he isn't. I don't think I know (or remember) enough of the lore to make that judgement.
    But I'll admit that going just by what I know / understand, it's not clear to me at all as to why he should be seen as evil.
     
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