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Lucifer, the “Good Guy” calling out God's bull****.

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
The Lucifer of my religion is an Exemplar of ambition, pride, wisdom and knowledge, charisma and cunning, unmorality, confidence, individuality, illumination, personal freedom, power in all its forms, conquest, and apotheosis.

The Satan of my religion is viewed as a fearsome yet loyal angel of the Supreme God, and inspires genuine malevolence to test human character.

The Supreme God embodies Creation, Destruction, and Divine Order over Primordial Chaos.

___

So… I’ve just briefed the world on three of the Seven gods I worship. I prefer not to use words like “good” or “bad” when describing them. It is like saying ambition must be either good or bad. Or storms. Or destruction. Or knowledge. As if it is always to be viewed as one of these things, either/or, at all times. No. The truth is not so simple. Knowledge can be used to heal the sick and extend our lifespans. It can also be used to commit genocide. It is not a “good” or a “bad” thing. Set your feelings aside and open your eyes.

The language I use when describing my God(s)… paints a far clearer picture about what they mean to me.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Lucifer Is a One-of-a-Kind “Good Guy” Among Literary Villains

Complete literary role reversal.

So. A question directed at mythological Christian lore.

Is lucifer a good guy or the bad guy?

I see lucifer as a good guy exposing the tyranny and iron rule of a malevolent and evil diety that will kill anyone not in complete obedience to it.

I remember thinking God was good at first, but there are enough examples in the Bible and apocryphal works that suggest otherwise when the overall picture is layed out on the table.
"Moral progress happens, and suddenly a story gets turned on its head."

The moral progress is that we, well, at least some of us, have evolved into valuing individuality and free thought. Biblical morality, otoh, is all about unquestioning loyalty. The first command El gives is "Obey!". And they didn't even think about giving morality to Adam and Eve, they only gain that by disobeying. That's what makes the Abrahamic religions so attractive for tyrants and authoritarians: believers who don't talk back, even when facing an immoral ruler.
And that is a theme that runs throughout the Bible. Obey! (And don't think.)
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Lucifer Is a One-of-a-Kind “Good Guy” Among Literary Villains

Complete literary role reversal.

So. A question directed at mythological Christian lore.

Is lucifer a good guy or the bad guy?

I see lucifer as a good guy exposing the tyranny and iron rule of a malevolent and evil diety that will kill anyone not in complete obedience to it.

I remember thinking God was good at first, but there are enough examples in the Bible and apocryphal works that suggest otherwise when the overall picture is layed out on the table.


Thought you didn’t believe in God?
 

Gargovic Malkav

Well-Known Member
Many people only seem to know a god they can judge.
Hence they see Satan as someone who is judging God too.
This is not what monotheism is about, imo.

In my interpretation, he isn't judging God because he knows he is in no position to do so.
He may have the freedom and/or nature to judge humans, and use God's authority to go out of his way to show why he may think so lowly of them.

But whether he rebels through his own freedom of choice, or that he's in on it as an angel just doing his job in God's service doesn't matter to me.
His role remains the same.
Not as an enemy of God, but as an enemy of people.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Lucifer Is a One-of-a-Kind “Good Guy” Among Literary Villains

Complete literary role reversal.

So. A question directed at mythological Christian lore.

Is lucifer a good guy or the bad guy?

I see lucifer as a good guy exposing the tyranny and iron rule of a malevolent and evil diety that will kill anyone not in complete obedience to it.

I remember thinking God was good at first, but there are enough examples in the Bible and apocryphal works that suggest otherwise when the overall picture is layed out on the table.
Lucifer is essentially a Christian creation, their ultimate symbol of evil. If you redefine him to be some sort of ballsy rebel who is better than God, you are essentially no longer believing in Lucifer. You have created something new.

BTW, In Judaism, HaSatan is not the same as "Lucifer" (Latin for morning star,light bringer). Morning star is the nick name for the King of Tyre. There are also differences between the original Satan in Judaism and the Christian adaptation. In Judaism, angels have no free will so they can't rebel. HaSatan is an angel, God's employee. He has a terrible job (to tempt us so that free will can exist), but hey, someone's gotta do it, right? We certainly don't think Satan is any "god of this world." There is only one God.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
It's just a synopsis of the story from the perspective of Lucifer.
I like the idea, it gives Lucifer a more relatable motive for being a villain. However, it makes just as much sense as the idea that “God is misunderstood” or “the OT God is not the same as the NT God”
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If you don't realize that these characters are fictional representations, and are neither good nor bad, you won't know how to read mythical literature, and understand it.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I like the idea, it gives Lucifer a more relatable motive for being a villain. However, it makes just as much sense as the idea that “God is misunderstood” or “the OT God is not the same as the NT God”
The peculiar thing about the stories is that it's perfectly rational to view lucifer as not a villain, but as a vilified hero of sorts fighting a tyrannical deity.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Lucifer Is a One-of-a-Kind “Good Guy” Among Literary Villains

Complete literary role reversal.

So. A question directed at mythological Christian lore.

Is lucifer a good guy or the bad guy?

I see lucifer as a good guy exposing the tyranny and iron rule of a malevolent and evil diety that will kill anyone not in complete obedience to it.

I remember thinking God was good at first, but there are enough examples in the Bible and apocryphal works that suggest otherwise when the overall picture is layed out on the table.

Lucifer was evil, sinful because he asserted his will and rejected the superior will or plans of his creator. He had been a trusted administrator until he was essentially corrupted by his own brilliance; he took himself too seriously! Lucifer was delusional, rejecting the idea of a creator Father yet he had no problem making himself God over those who elected to follow him. He tried to do the undoable! It was an attempted coup d'état in heaven!

Isaiah 5: 20-23


20Woe to those who call evil good

and good evil,

who turn darkness to light

and light to darkness,

who replace bitter with sweet

and sweet with bitter.21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes

and clever in their own sight.22Woe to those who are heroes in drinking wine

and champions in mixing strong drink,23who acquit the guilty for a bribe

and deprive the innocent of justice.
 
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Colt

Well-Known Member
Lucifer Is a One-of-a-Kind “Good Guy” Among Literary Villains

Complete literary role reversal.

So. A question directed at mythological Christian lore.

Is lucifer a good guy or the bad guy?

I see lucifer as a good guy exposing the tyranny and iron rule of a malevolent and evil diety that will kill anyone not in complete obedience to it.

I remember thinking God was good at first, but there are enough examples in the Bible and apocryphal works that suggest otherwise when the overall picture is layed out on the table.
If the main characters depicted in the story are accurate, God as creator and Lucifer as a son of God, then God is the tolerant, compassionate, merciful Father who has afforded Lucifer time to repent of his folly! If God were just a cold-hearted tyrant, then he would have unceremoniously destroyed his foolish, rebellious son!

Those of us who are impressed with our own minds, rebelling against the rule of the Father in our hearts, taunting God with the fact of our ongoing free will as the "proof" that God doesn't exist, we are completely oblivious that we are enjoying the "time lag of justice" that Gods mercy has provided for us to repent of our foolish folly!

IMOP
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Lucifer is essentially a Christian creation, their ultimate symbol of evil. If you redefine him to be some sort of ballsy rebel who is better than God, you are essentially no longer believing in Lucifer. You have created something new.

BTW, In Judaism, HaSatan is not the same as "Lucifer" (Latin for morning star,light bringer). Morning star is the nick name for the King of Tyre. There are also differences between the original Satan in Judaism and the Christian adaptation. In Judaism, angels have no free will so they can't rebel. HaSatan is an angel, God's employee. He has a terrible job (to tempt us so that free will can exist), but hey, someone's gotta do it, right? We certainly don't think Satan is any "god of this world." There is only one God.
It's very interesting how Protestants have focused on the Ancient Testament much more than us Catholics.
My Catholic priest clearly said that to me, one I was a little child: Catholic theology, soteriology, hamartiology and angiology, is 90% from the New Testament.
That is why, Goethe (a Protestant) wrote one of the gems of German Literature, the Faust, whose prologue is identical to Job 1 and says what you have just said in your post: that is, that Satan is an opponent hired by God Himself (a sort of public accuser) who is necessary, so men decide between evil and good.
Es irrt der Mensch, solang' er strebt = Man will err, as long as he desires and struggle. The verb streben is untranslatable, in my opinion: it basically means that men need to wish, to crave for something even at cost of sinning, because that's how people can change the world, can put ideas into action. Because absence of sin would prevent that from happening, according to Goethe.

We Catholics very rarely call the devil Lucifer. The correct term is Satan, that's the term we have been taught.
It was the most beautiful angel who envied God. Envy is the root of all evils. Because envy pushed Satan to rise against God. Saint Michael Archangel and God's legions defeated him. He and his fellow traitors were turned into demons.
We have been taught that life is a restless war between angels and demons, and we have to side with angels, to get salvation.
The purpose of God is all men living on Earth are happy. Satan wants to destroy men because He hates God and all of His creation. He can't do anything against God and His angels, so He preys on the weakest creatures: men.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Lucifer Is a One-of-a-Kind “Good Guy” Among Literary Villains

Complete literary role reversal.

So. A question directed at mythological Christian lore.

Is lucifer a good guy or the bad guy?

I see lucifer as a good guy exposing the tyranny and iron rule of a malevolent and evil diety that will kill anyone not in complete obedience to it.

I remember thinking God was good at first, but there are enough examples in the Bible and apocryphal works that suggest otherwise when the overall picture is layed out on the table.

Lucifer, Satan and the Devil are the same person who evolves over time. Lucifer, Satan and Devil are a trinity of sorts, that is spread over time and space. The trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is overlapped in time and space.

Lucifer was morally neutral. Satan polarized neutral into good and evil. While the Devil is pure evil.

Lucifer as the morning star, which is Venus, symbolized the night and the day overlapping The stars are normally associated with night. However, the planet Venus orbits close enough to the sun, that when the sun rises, we can often see Venus at sunrise; morning star.

Lucifer was part of the dark side; night and stars; unconscious mind, but also close to the light side in the morning; start of day; conscious mind. Lucifer was with God during creation. He was like a randomizing agent that help to bring variety to creation. For example as God created trees, Lucifer would add different types. In evolution, the action of Lucifer would be analogous to mutations on already formed DNA.

Lucifer evolves into Satan who, like the tree of knowledge, was both good and evil. Lucifer's nature as a randomizer may have been responsible for the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which was a mutation of the tree of life. This would become Satan's tree. Knowledge of good and evil is also similar to a randomizer affect that compounds the number of different laws and the types of sins. The IRS alone has 70,000 pages of laws of good and evil; constant mutations instead of a new way to do this.

In Genesis, God creates the heaven and earth over 6 days and then rests on the 7th day. While God was resting on the first Sabbath, others were working for him maintaining creation. Like the human sabbath, which was modeled on the heavenly sabbath, one is not allowed to do work on the Sabbath. All things need to be prepped in advance, and if work still needs to be done, one needs to hire another to do the work for you.

Lucifer becomes Satan, as God rested. Arrangements were made on the sixth day, for Adam and Eve to meet Satan, through a prohibition, and they all seemed to be on the same page; eat from the tree of Satan; knowledge of good and evil which is often subjective. God was resting and could not work to save them. Instead, Satan became the Lord of the Earth, in charge of humans, as God rested. Knowledge of good and evil would add a randomizer affect to the human mind; endless taboos.

The God of the Old Testament, seen by the prophets of old, was really Satan, since the real God was still resting on the seventh day. Jesus said nobody has seen the Father except the son. God was on sabbath rest even at the time of Jesus and only mingled with his family and close friends, which is allowed on the Sabbath. Satan had become God's CEO in charge of the humans as he rested.

Before Jesus began his ministry he was visited by Satan as Jesus fasted and prayed in the wilderness. Among other things, Satan offers Jesus all the wealth and power of the Kingdoms of the Earth if he would bow and serve him. Has Jesus accepted the offer he would have become the Messiah anticipated by the Jews and written about in the Old Testament; powerful leader who could subdue all enemies. But Jesus declines and by doing so broke the time line of the prophesy. This leads to a political battle and heaven.

Satan transforms into the Devil in Revelations. There is a war in heaven and Satan is thrown from heaven. Satan was part of God's plan and was divinely sanctioned until he is thrown from heaven. Jesus did not accept the old time line but had his eye on the CEO job. Satan flies comes down to the earth, no longer sanctioned by heaven, as he had been in the Old and most of the New Testament. Now as the Devil, he is evil, to contrast to the Son of God, who replaces Satan as the CEO, as God finishes his Sabbath rest.

When the heavens open, at the end of Revelations, and the armies of God comes down to earth, to over throw the Anti-Christ, False prophet and Satan/Devil, God's rest has officially ended and he is back to work. This starts a new work week; Sunday.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
How come that's Latin word., when did this word come about?
Really terrible translations.

Lucifer is the Roman personification of the planet Venus, the son of Aurora and Cephalus, and the herald of the dawn. Really, he has nothing at all to do with the Middle East, the bible, or Yahweh. He is also known as Noctifer (Night Bringer) for the planet at dusk. Similar cultural parallels are the Germanic figure Ōstara and English Ēostre, from both of which we get Austria and Easter.

In the Book of Isaiah, the phrase "הֵילֵל" (in reference to the King of Babyolon - "How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!") was translated into the Latin as "lucifer". This is where the Christian motif of a "fallen angel" has come from, despite that being flowery language to mean that the unnamed Babylonian king fell from grace.

Ironically, "Lucifer" was a title for Jesus in the early church, as the word means "Light Bringer" (lux ferre) - to note this is still a misuse of the figure, as the light he brings is not knowledge or wisdom but simply the day. Lucifer became associated with the Christian devil thanks to political rivals of Saint Lucifer of Cagliari, an early church bishop who was strongly opposed to Arianism. (Christian theology that believes Jesus is the son of god, who was begotten by Yahweh; not to be confused with Aryanism.) Emperor Constantius II imprisoned and exiled (multiple times) Lucifer due to his opposition to ecclesiastical policy (Church law), and as well his opposition to the structure of the Nicene Creed and it's proponents. Essentially, Lucifer was the first Protestant, and because of his opposition to the way the church was being built into the Roman Catholic church, he was vilified and his name was associated with Satan (of whom is also the result of biblical mistranslation of Hebrew words).

Lucifer as the Devil is a political smear campaign, not unlike pretty much every single other name for the Christian devil and several "demons" in the Ars Goetia.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Lucifer Is a One-of-a-Kind “Good Guy” Among Literary Villains

Complete literary role reversal.

So. A question directed at mythological Christian lore.

Is lucifer a good guy or the bad guy?

I see lucifer as a good guy exposing the tyranny and iron rule of a malevolent and evil diety that will kill anyone not in complete obedience to it.

I remember thinking God was good at first, but there are enough examples in the Bible and apocryphal works that suggest otherwise when the overall picture is layed out on the table.
I remember a parable that Jesus gave:

23 “The master said, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’ 24 “Then the servant with the one bag of silver came and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a harsh man, harvesting crops you didn’t plant and gathering crops you didn’t cultivate. 25 I was afraid I would lose your money, so I hid it in the earth. Look, here is your money back.’ 26 “But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! If you knew I harvested crops I didn’t plant and gathered crops I didn’t cultivate, 27 why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’ 28 “Then he ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one with the ten bags of silver. 29 To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. 30 Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Of course, the master was not a harsh man, did plant, did cultivate. It was the person that was evil and projected his state onto the master and then created his own future.

Our understanding is that Satan was serving a good God but then decided that God was evil when it was evil in himself that was being projected onto the good God.

So, as a man believes in his heart, so is he and then creates his own future

What do you believe in your heart?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Doesn't his face look like the devil himself? Twisting, tempting and then killing? Reminds me of Satan as he twisted truth and tried to tempt God Himself.
How would you respond to the point, though, that we have all of these instincts and God wants us to fight them? What would you say is the point?
 
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