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Lucifer. is there a Devil?

Enoch07

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Ingledsva said:
Baloney, I mentioned it . You knew exactly what we were discussing.

Also, Christians do not have the right to add things to Hebrew words.

It will never mean Satan. It specifically tells us it is a human man
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The OP did not mention it.

You are not the OP.

We didn't per say. We have different interpretations. As the link I provided clearly explained. Which is why Jews and Christians, while sharing many things in common, are entirely separate from each other. The same goes for Islam. Even though it also is an Abrahamic religion. Islam is completely separate with its own book and interpretations of some of the same stories.
 
Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Enoch07 said:
The OP did not mention it.

You are not the OP.

We didn't per say. We have different interpretations. As the link I provided clearly explained. Which is why Jews and Christians, while sharing many things in common, are entirely separate from each other. The same goes for Islam. Even though it also is an Abrahamic religion. Islam is completely separate with its own book and interpretations of some of the same stories.
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The OP doesn't have to mention it.

However he said in the OP - "Good evening. this is a discussion about the verse in the Old testament mentioning Lucifer by name."

And - ""yet you shall be brought down to Sheol" Sheol is not Hell. the Jews don't believe in Hell. Sheol is where all dead go. it's not Good or Evil it's just a place in the ground where mortals go."

It was made apparent throughout this thread.

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Enoch07

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Ingledsva said:
The OP doesn't have to mention it.

However he said - "Good evening. this is a discussion about the verse in the Old testament mentioning Lucifer by name."

And - ""yet you shall be brought down to Sheol" Sheol is not Hell. the Jews don't believe in Hell. Sheol is where all dead go. it's not Good or Evil it's just a place in the ground where mortals go."

It was made apparent throughout this thread
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Irrelevant.

I talked with the OP in another thread. They said that for the NT they look at through a Christians lens and the OT through the Jewish lens (making it the Tanakh).

The OP (unintentionally) mislead the thread by not stating this fact before hand. Which lead to the confusion and whacky arguments in this thread that made sense to no one. The confusion is cleared up now. Which means I am out of the argument since I am not Jewish.
 
Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Enoch07 said:
Irrelevant.

I talked with the OP in another thread. They said that for the NT they look at through a Christians lens and the OT through the Jewish lens (making it the Tanakh).

The OP (unintentionally) mislead the thread by not stating this fact before hand. Which lead to the confusion and whacky arguments in this thread that made sense to no one. The confusion is cleared up now. Which means I am out of the argument since I am not Jewish.
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LOL! Nice try - No go!

He says OT in the OP.

You knew, and were wrong.

Accept it.
 
Enoch07

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Ingledsva said:
LOL! Nice try - No go!

He says OT in the OP.

You knew, and were wrong.

Accept it.
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Yes he did. But he views it from the Jewish point of view, not the Christian. They said OT but meant Tanakh. Which is why I said they unintentionally mislead the thread. Now if they view it from the Christian pov, and says Lucifer is not Satan, then yes there is a debate to be had. But they view it from the Jewish pov which varies because I've seen several different views on Satan from Jewish folk. Apparently it's complicated, which is why I am not getting in to it from the Jewish pov.
 
DavidFirth

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Ingledsva said:
Actually you are trying to ignore mine - in an attempt to save your pride.

We have the texts in the original Hebrew and Greek, etc.

What we have said is accurate and any of our Jewish members can tell you that Sheol, for instance, means the place of the dead, the grave.

We and they can tell you there is no Lucifer in Isaiah.

No virgin birth in Isaiah.

etc.

*
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Opinion noted and ignored.
 
F

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Father said:
"you people" you mean the jews? who wrote the book itself. jesus didn't write the bible. he didn't even write the Gospels. the Gospels were not even written by his followers. they were written over 100 years after his death by second-hand witnesses talking about first-hand witnesses. and even then there are many Gospels not in the new testament as the early Pope and church decided what went in. they of course still have those other Gospels they keep them in the Heretical Library and have them reviewed and read by Historians. the oldest old testament on record has over 4000 differences with the standard bible. and the oldest found new testament does not even mention Jesus being crucified. this is not a matter of "you people" this is historical context. something your people love to cry out when we point out a contradiction "THATS OUT OF CONTEXT!" you cry. well in this instance it is you out of context
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You are very much mistaken, all scriptures came by Christ Jesus, there is nothing Written by man himself.

God gave to His Holy men what exactly to write down, Therefore the scriptures were already written down in heaven before the scriptures came down here to God's Holy Prophet's to write.

God chosen out His Holy men ( Prophet's) in heaven and sent them down here to write down what exactly what He wanted and No more.
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
DavidFirth said:
Have you not read that God had mercy on mankind?

God has said, "I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy."
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It's not merciful cursing all of mankind and only a portion of angels. It would seem mankind got the short end of the stick. ;0)
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
DavidFirth said:
No, they didn't. Man can be saved from condemnation by the Gospel. Fallen angels cannot.
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But it was still sin right? Are there different kinds of sin? Like a sin of rebellion in is less evil than the sin of eating magically imbued apples (or applicable fruit in the case of the Garden of Eden)?
 
DavidFirth

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Nowhere Man said:
But it was still sin right? Are there different kinds of sin? Like a sin of rebellion in is less evil than the sin of eating magically imbued apples (or applicable fruit in the case of the Garden of Eden)?
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Sin is sin. The Bible speaks of sin unto death and sin that is not unto death in the New Testament.
 
Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Enoch07 said:
Yes he did. But he views it from the Jewish point of view, not the Christian. They said OT but meant Tanakh. Which is why I said they unintentionally mislead the thread. Now if they view it from the Christian pov, and says Lucifer is not Satan, then yes there is a debate to be had. But they view it from the Jewish pov which varies because I've seen several different views on Satan from Jewish folk. Apparently it's complicated, which is why I am not getting in to it from the Jewish pov.
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Neither he or I belong to any religions.

So it is not a "Jewish" point of view. It is the scholarly view from researchers of both texts, and our own research of the original languages of both the Tanakh and New Testament.

Any discussion of Tanakh, with thousands of years of Christian misunderstanding, mistranslating, and twisting of that text, automatically brings Christianity into the debate. That is very obvious from the other replies to the OP.

So again, - it doesn't fly.

And GOOD GRIEF!!! Tanakh IS what you Christians call the Old Testament! READ THIS! Tanakh - Wikipedia

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Repox

Repox

Truth Seeker
Lucifer, Satan, whatever you want to call him is God's fallen angel. In heaven, it was such a serious problem for God that He created the universe as a prison for Satan. Then, imprisoned in the universe, Satan has attempted on numerous occasions to escape the universe in order to return to heaven. If you investigate scientific records, you'll find what scientists call the "Axis of Evil." It is a ring of dark holes on the boundary of the universe where Satan has attempted to escape.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Muslim-UK said:
And say, "Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart." Qur'an 17:81

This is why on every point where Christianity and Islam differs, nature of God, Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection, the Islamic narrative makes sense, has backing from the true followers of Jesus pbuh and Christians increasingly become dissatisfied cultural Christians only.....

Just 800,000 worshippers attend a Church of England service on the average Sunday



    • Numbers in the pews have fallen to less than half the levels of the 1960s
    • Census evidence shows a widespread fall in allegiance to Christianity
    • Numbers of Christians has fallen more than four million in a decade
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2586596/Just-800-000-worshipers-attend-Church-England-service-average-Sunday.html
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I believe that is a non-sequitur. Truth has come in the person of Jesus and that trumps anything Muslims think they have for truth.
 
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