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Loving God?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Sojourner said:
Is it possible for humans to purely love uncoditionally? Probably not, because human beings are imperfect.
It seems to me, Sojourner, that there are two distinct issues here. First, whether it is possible for humans to love unconditionally. And, second, whether loving unconditionally can be sustained. I would suggest that those questions be looked at separately, as well as in relation to each other.

I would suggest that unconditional love is possible for humans, that many people have experienced it, but that it is typically fleeting. Comments?
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
sojourner said:
Is it possible for humans to purely love uncoditionally? Probably not, because human beings are imperfect. But we can always hold that ideal up as a standard to which we aspire, and which we hope can be borne out in our relationships with others.
There are a few humans who have reached this level. Mother Teresa is one that comes to mind.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
I think that "conditional love" is an oxymoron. I think that the term "uncoditional love" is a redundancy. Love is unconditional. Therefore, if we truly love God, we love unconditionally. God is pure and so defines love as pure. Love comes from God and returns to God. We do not love God because God is good, or because God has saved us. we return the love to God that we have received first from God.

I don't think that love is unconditional. If love is unconditional, it means "I love you no matter what". But if that was true, then there would be no divorce.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Well are you sure you don't love humans because it makes you feel good?
Pretty sure, it doesn't make me feel one way or the other...

What if loving humans would make you feel bad inside, would you still love them? What if hating humans would make you feel good?
Hate has made me feel good before, however that does not mean I continue to hate.

here is a reason for everything
I agree...

the only difference between you saying that love can be unconditional and me saying it is always conditional is that I've found all sorts of primary reasons for that love and you haven't, probably because you look upon it as a more abstract, spiritual thing.
I agree as well, if I have no reason for loving, other than the act itself, I have no reason for not loving as well...

I know this because for every action I've ever done in my life, I have thought about the reason why I did what I did, and there was always a selfish reason for it.
So your selfish? :p

I then confronted other people with this issue, and a lot of them admitted to this, while some did not, and after discussing with them (in real life) I could see they were either not being honest with themselves (because they were not willing to give up that romantic aspect of life) or just not looking deep enough into it.
So anyone who disagrees with you about the source of an action is either dishonest or ignorant?

since their bodies are governed by the laws of physics just like mine.
Ahhh, no freewill then?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So far people have talked about us humans either loving God conditionally or unconditionally.

But have anyone thought that God's love is just as conditional?

Unless you believe or worship Him, then He won't love you. Wouldn't you say that his love is conditional? It also sounds like to me that God love us selfishly with a lot of string attachments.

For me, I can't love another person I have never met before, so how do you expect me to love a god, whose presence I can't see, hear or feel.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I would suggest that unconditional love is possible for humans, that many people have experienced it, but that it is typically fleeting. Comments?

I think that's exactly right. We can love unconditionally, but we do not constantly love unconditionally.

There are a few humans who have reached this level. Mother Teresa is one that comes to mind.

But, I'll bet that she didn't love unconditionally constantly.

I don't think that love is unconditional. If love is unconditional, it means "I love you no matter what". But if that was true, then there would be no divorce.

First, this is true IF you base unconditional love by human standards. This ties in with what I was saying earlier about humans striving to be more than they are.

Second, there are more than just one type of love. The type we're talking about here is agape, and not eros.

So far people have talked about us humans either loving God conditionally or unconditionally.

But have anyone thought that God's love is just as conditional?

Unless you believe or worship Him, then He won't love you. Wouldn't you say that his love is conditional? It also sounds like to me that God love us selfishly with a lot of string attachments.

For me, I can't love another person I have never met before, so how do you expect me to love a god, whose presence I can't see, hear or feel.

First, there's a HUGE fallacy in your post. God doesn't only love us if we worship or believe in God. We love God, because God first loved us. God doesn't turn God's back on us. Ever.

Second, the fact that you can only love someone you've met is a great example of the folly of qualifying love upon human standards, and not the divine. Some people can and do love people they've never met.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Sojourner said:
First, this is true IF you base unconditional love by human standards.

yes, and the first post does indeed talk of the love HUMANS have for God. So i think it's justifiable to speak of Human standards.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Tiberius said:
yes, and the first post does indeed talk of the love HUMANS have for God. So i think it's justifiable to speak of Human standards.
Refer back to an earlier post of mine. I said that the love we experience comes from God and returns to God. We don't make the love, we channel the love.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
So we don't love God, he loves himself through us?

oh...kay....:areyoucra

Also, that definition of the love of God isn't fact, it's just based on your opinion. And I don't think it's a valid point of view, sorry.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Tiberius said:
So we don't love God, he loves himself through us?

oh...kay....:areyoucra

In a sense...yes! But it's not quite that simplistic. we experience the love of God. That loves comes from God to us. It is a gift to us. When we receive it, it is ours. We can do with it what we like. Those who are astute enough to recognize where the love comes from and the nature of that love, then return that love to God. In that way, a relationship , wherein we experience unity with God, is created.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Sunstone said:
Is it possible to love God conditionally? Or must God be love unconditionally? Or are conditional and unconditional love here entwined in an eternal embrace almost as tight as I embrace my Acme Latex Love Doll in moments of passion?

What are the spiritual and psychological consequences of loving God conditionally? Of loving God unconditionally? Of loving God both conditionally and unconditionally?

To help clarify what is meant here by conditional and unconditional, allow me to quote a poem by Elizabeth Barrett Browning, which was recently sent to me by an especially astute friend. In the poem, Browning is obviously talking about love for another human, but it should not take much stretch of the imagination to apply what she says about loving another human to loving God:

If thou must love me, let it be for nought
Except for love's sake only. Do not say
'I love her for her smile - her look - her way
Of speaking gently, - for a trick of thought
That falls in well with mine, and certes brought
A sense of pleasant ease on such a day' -
For these things in themselves, Beloved, may
Be changed, or change for thee, - and love, so wrought,
May be unwrought so. Neither love me for
Thine own dear pity's wiping my cheeks dry, -
A creature might forget to weep, who bore
Thy comfort long, and lose thy love thereby!
But love me for love's sake, that evermore
Thou mayst love on, through love's eternity.


Do you think most religious people love God conditionally or unconditionally or both?

What a lovely poem that is, Sunstone.

Do most religious people love God conditionally, or unconditionally, you ask; I don't know.

I can only answer for me; I would say I cannot love God unconditionally. If I did so, if God asked me to sacrifice a member of my family for him, I would have to be able to do that, and, in my heart, I know I couldn't.

But apart from that one condition, Yes, I love God 99.99% unconditionally.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
So, let me get this straight....

You're incapable of loving God by yourself?

What does that say about your faith that you can't love God by yourself?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Tiberius said:
So, let me get this straight....

You're incapable of loving God by yourself?

What does that say about your faith that you can't love God by yourself?

[sigh] Love comes from God. All things come from God. We can't do anything without the help of God. it says nothing about faith...but it does make a claim about the sovereignty of God.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
So we're basically puppets and God is pulling the strings? Or can we make choices on our own? If we can, then your wrong when you say, "We can't do anything without the help of God." If not, then God must be responsible for some of us going to hell, as God must be helping us make the decision to sin.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Tiberius said:
So we're basically puppets and God is pulling the strings? Or can we make choices on our own? If we can, then your wrong when you say, "We can't do anything without the help of God." If not, then God must be responsible for some of us going to hell, as God must be helping us make the decision to sin.

I didn't say that. We have free will...but we have free will only because God has given us the gift of free will.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
sojourner said:
In a sense...yes! But it's not quite that simplistic. we experience the love of God. That loves comes from God to us. It is a gift to us. When we receive it, it is ours. We can do with it what we like. Those who are astute enough to recognize where the love comes from and the nature of that love, then return that love to God. In that way, a relationship , wherein we experience unity with God, is created.

I agree with this. Our perception of duality, separation from Him and each other, is an illusion.

lunamoth
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
So, just to get the record straight....

We don't love God, God uses us to love himself. And he finds some of us more suited for this task than others, and those people who are particularly suited are called Christians. Those others that are not so suitable are just religious (maybe Jewish? Muslim?), and those few who he made to be so pathetically useless for god's habit of loving himself through us are called Atheists and are to be sent to hell for being so useless?

I didn't say that. We have free will...but we have free will only because God has given us the gift of free will.

Okay, I'm really confused now.

You said before we can't do anything without God's help, but now we can make our own choices without God's help?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Tiberius said:
So, just to get the record straight....

We don't love God, God uses us to love himself. And he finds some of us more suited for this task than others, and those people who are particularly suited are called Christians. Those others that are not so suitable are just religious (maybe Jewish? Muslim?), and those few who he made to be so pathetically useless for god's habit of loving himself through us are called Atheists and are to be sent to hell for being so useless?



Okay, I'm really confused now.

You said before we can't do anything without God's help, but now we can make our own choices without God's help?
God doesn't use us. God loves us. Love isn't manipulative.

A long time ago, our perception of God was as a powerful angry deity who punished us if we did not worship him. So, we began throwing virgins into volcanoes to appease this God.

Later, we came to understand God a bit differently. We understood God as a God who loved us, but who tested that love by asking us to make choices and do things. So, we began to "prove our love and devotion" by tying up our firstborn and burning them on altars.

Today, we understand God as a God who loves us unconditionally. God is sovereign and made us for God's self. Because God is love, God made us in order to be in relationship with us. God's greatest givft to us is our life, and, in the end, that's all we really have. Jesus showed us that selfless love, shown forth in self-sacrifice, (giving our lives to God -- dedicating our desires and hopes and ventures to God) is the best way to return the love that God has given us.

It's not about God using us, or about us attempting to use God. It's about us realizing our Source and the love in which we were created and given life. It's about us returning that life, in love, to the One who created us. It's about relationship.

God gave us the free will to love God -- God does not force us to love God. But, the free will with which we make the choice is also from God -- we didn't invent it.

No, I don't believe that God finds some of us bettersuited than others. I don't think I'm any more favored in God's sight than a muslim -- or an atheist, for that matter. God loves all of us equally, and created us to be with God equally.
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
I found this on a blog, I do not know where it was originally published, but I thought it was cute:

A group of professional people posed this question to a group of 4 to 8 year-olds, "What does love mean?" The answers they got were broader and deeper than anyone could have imagined. See what you think:

"When my grandmother got arthritis, she couldn't bend over and paint her toenails anymore. So my grandfather does it for her all the time, even when his hands got arthritis too. That's love. "Rebecca- age 8

"When someone loves you, the way they say your name is different. You just know that your name is safe in their mouth." Billy - age 4

"Love is what's in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening presents and listen." Bobby - age 7

"If you want to learn to love better, you should start with a friend who you hate,"Nikka - age 6

"You really shouldn't say 'I love you' unless you mean it. But if you mean it, you should say it a lot. People forget." Jessica - age 8

"When you love somebody, your eyelashes go up and down and little stars come out of you." (what an image) Karen - age 7

"Love is what makes you smile when you're tired." Terri - age 4

Author and lecturer Leo Buscaglia once talked about a contest he was asked to judge.The purpose of the contest was to find the most caring child.

The winner was a four year old child whose next door neighbor was anelderly gentleman who had recently lost his wife. Upon seeing the man cry, the little boy went into the old gentleman's yard, climbed onto his lap, and just sat there. When his Mother asked what he had said to the neighbor, the little boy said, "Nothing, I just helped him cry"
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
EnhancedSpirit said:
I found this on a blog, I do not know where it was originally published, but I thought it was cute:

A group of professional people posed this question to a group of 4 to 8 year-olds, "What does love mean?" The answers they got were broader and deeper than anyone could have imagined. See what you think:

"When my grandmother got arthritis, she couldn't bend over and paint her toenails anymore. So my grandfather does it for her all the time, even when his hands got arthritis too. That's love. "Rebecca- age 8

"When someone loves you, the way they say your name is different. You just know that your name is safe in their mouth." Billy - age 4

"Love is what's in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening presents and listen." Bobby - age 7

"If you want to learn to love better, you should start with a friend who you hate,"Nikka - age 6

"You really shouldn't say 'I love you' unless you mean it. But if you mean it, you should say it a lot. People forget." Jessica - age 8

"When you love somebody, your eyelashes go up and down and little stars come out of you." (what an image) Karen - age 7

"Love is what makes you smile when you're tired." Terri - age 4

Author and lecturer Leo Buscaglia once talked about a contest he was asked to judge.The purpose of the contest was to find the most caring child.

The winner was a four year old child whose next door neighbor was anelderly gentleman who had recently lost his wife. Upon seeing the man cry, the little boy went into the old gentleman's yard, climbed onto his lap, and just sat there. When his Mother asked what he had said to the neighbor, the little boy said, "Nothing, I just helped him cry"

That's nice, EnhancedSpirit, but what does it have to do with the OP in your opinion?
 
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