Loving God?

[Sunstone]

Is it possible to love God conditionally? Or must God be love unconditionally? Or are conditional and unconditional love here entwined in an eternal embrace almost as tight as I embrace my Acme Latex Love Doll in moments of passion?

What are the spiritual and psychological consequences of loving God conditionally? Of loving God unconditionally? Of loving God both conditionally and unconditionally?

To help clarify what is meant here by conditional and unconditional, allow me to quote a poem by Elizabeth Barrett Browning, which was recently sent to me by an especially astute friend. In the poem, Browning is obviously talking about love for another human, but it should not take much stretch of the imagination to apply what she says about loving another human to loving God:

If thou must love me, let it be for nought
Except for love's sake only. Do not say
'I love her for her smile - her look - her way
Of speaking gently, - for a trick of thought
That falls in well with mine, and certes brought
A sense of pleasant ease on such a day' -
For these things in themselves, Beloved, may
Be changed, or change for thee, - and love, so wrought,
May be unwrought so. Neither love me for
Thine own dear pity's wiping my cheeks dry, -
A creature might forget to weep, who bore
Thy comfort long, and lose thy love thereby!
But love me for love's sake, that evermore
Thou mayst love on, through love's eternity.


Do you think most religious people love God conditionally or unconditionally or both?

 

[sojourner]

I think that "conditional love" is an oxymoron. I think that the term "uncoditional love" is a redundancy. Love is unconditional. Therefore, if we truly love God, we love unconditionally. God is pure and so defines love as pure. Love comes from God and returns to God. We do not love God because God is good, or because God has saved us. we return the love to God that we have received first from God.

 

[Opethian]

Nothing is unconditional.

 

[sojourner]

Nothing is unconditional.

Certainly from a human perspective and definition, that's true. Humans are pitifully conditional. But, there is that "something more" that comes from outside us, that compels us to eschew our limitations in favor of something eternal, something pure, something divine. In this, we believe, lies our true nature that we endeavor to embrace.

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

spirit and love in the spirit is unconditional

 

[Opethian]

spirit and love in the spirit is unconditional

No it's not. You would like to think it is, because that would make you a good person, but in fact you're not a hair better than anything else on this planet. No one is better than anyone else in fact, from a "good vs evil" point of view. And everything humans do, they do for a reason, a selfish reason. Even loving. Even loving "god".

 

[sojourner]

No it's not. You would like to think it is, because that would make you a good person, but in fact you're not a hair better than anything else on this planet. No one is better than anyone else in fact, from a "good vs evil" point of view. And everything humans do, they do for a reason, a selfish reason. Even loving. Even loving "god".

You're absolutely wrong. This has nothing to do with superlatives. Loving unconditionally has nothing to do with being a "better" person than someone else.
Of course we have reasons for doing things. But those reasons can be altruistic. We can strive for altruism, even though we may never attain it, due to human limitations. We are not God. We don't claim to be God. We are not perfect, but we can strive for perfection.

 

[Opethian]

You're absolutely wrong. This has nothing to do with superlatives. Loving unconditionally has nothing to do with being a "better" person than someone else.
Of course we have reasons for doing things. But those reasons can be altruistic. We can strive for altruism, even though we may never attain it, due to human limitations. We are not God. We don't claim to be God. We are not perfect, but we can strive for perfection.

Well I agree, insofar that you are saying here that you think that altruism is unattainable by humans. There's always a selfish reason for a human action, although one could say there are degrees in selfishness. I am still convinced though that many people believe because they like the thought that it makes them a better person. I'm not saying that this applies to you of course.

 

[Mister Emu]

Nothing is unconditional.

God's love is, this is proven to me by how He still loves me, and I am about the worst of the bunch... Through His love for me, I believe I can honestly say that my love for humans is unconditional(interaction however is conditional). If God can love me, I darned well can love others.

No it's not. You would like to think it is, because that would make you a good person, but in fact you're not a hair better than anything else on this planet.

It is, and thinking this doesn't make me a good person. Doesn't make me think I am a good person either.

And everything humans do, they do for a reason, a selfish reason. Even loving. Even loving "god"

You know this how?

There's always a selfish reason for a human action, although one could say there are degrees in selfishness.

Here it is again...

 

[dawny0826]

I think as long as we're in the flesh...our love for God will be conditional to some extent.

I view my walk in Christianity as slowly getting closer to understanding the concept of unconditional love.

I love God but I'm incapable of loving purely, as I'm in flesh. And because of the flesh, I will sin and will fall short of what's expected of me. Thus, there is chastisement...which comes in many shapes and forms.

Because I have accepted Christ...I know that in death, when I'm freed from this flesh...I will be one with my Father and will truly experience that unconditional and all encompassing love that it is my Heavenly Father.

 

[Æsahættr]

Nothing is unconditional.

Certainly from a human perspective and definition, that's true.

Love is unconditional.

So sojouner, if nothing is unconditional from a human perspective, and love is unconditional, then love does not exist from a human perspective?

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Finding Unconditional Love

The world as a whole has forgotten the real meaning of the word love. Love has been so abused and crucified by man that very few people know what true love is. Just as oil is present in every part of the olive, so love permeates every part of creation. But to define love is very difficult, for the same reason that words cannot fully describe the flavor of an orange. You have to taste the fruit to know its flavor. So with love.

In the universal sense, love is the divine power of attraction in creation that harmonizes, unites, binds together....Those who live in tune with the attractive force of love achieve harmony with nature and their fellow beings, and are attracted to blissful reunion with God.

"Ordinary love is selfish, darkly rooted in desires and satisfactions," [Sri Yukteswar said]. "Divine love is without condition, without boundary, without change. The flux of the human heart is gone forever at the transfixing touch of pure love."

Many human beings say "I love you" one day and reject you the next. That is not love. One whose heart is filled with the love of God cannot willfully hurt anyone. When you love God without reservation, He fills your heart with His unconditional love for all. That love no human tongue can describe....The ordinary man is incapable of loving others in this way. Self-centered in the consciousness of "I, me, and mine," he has not yet discovered the omnipresent God who resides in him and in all other beings.

To me there is no difference between one person and another; I behold all as soul-reflections of the one God. I can't think of anyone as a stranger, for I know that we are all part of the One Spirit. When you experience the true meaning of religion, which is to know God, you will realize that He is your Self, and that He exists equally and impartially in all beings. Then you will be able to love others as your own Self.

[FONT=Arial Narrow, Helvetica]The selections featured here are excerpted from Paramahansa Yogananda's book, WHERE THERE IS LIGHT: Insight & Inspiration for Meeting Life's Challenges.[/FONT]

 

[Æsahættr]

http://www.yogananda-srf.org/writings/love.html Many human beings say "I love you" one day and reject you the next. That is not love.

From a human point of view, no love is ever invincible. Someone could be prepared to die for someone they loved one day, and 20 years later they might not love them any more. Would you say to that person that they had never really loved?

 

[Fluffy]

Of course my love for the god and goddess is conditional. I do not know they exist. I do not know that my perception of them is accurate. If either of these things turned out to be false, then my love would falter.

 

[Opethian]

God's love is, this is proven to me by how He still loves me, and I am about the worst of the bunch... Through His love for me, I believe I can honestly say that my love for humans is unconditional(interaction however is conditional). If God can love me, I darned well can love others.

It is, and thinking this doesn't make me a good person. Doesn't make me think I am a good person either.

Well are you sure you don't love humans because it makes you feel good? What if loving humans would make you feel bad inside, would you still love them? What if hating humans would make you feel good? There is a reason for everything, the only difference between you saying that love can be unconditional and me saying it is always conditional is that I've found all sorts of primary reasons for that love and you haven't, probably because you look upon it as a more abstract, spiritual thing.

You know this how?

I know this because for every action I've ever done in my life, I have thought about the reason why I did what I did, and there was always a selfish reason for it. There was a time not long ago where I thought I did things just because they were good, and that these actions were not selfish at all, but somewhere along the line, I found out that if I looked deeper into myself, I could always find a selfish reason. I then confronted other people with this issue, and a lot of them admitted to this, while some did not, and after discussing with them (in real life) I could see they were either not being honest with themselves (because they were not willing to give up that romantic aspect of life) or just not looking deep enough into it. Now, over the internet, such a thing is much harder to notice of course, but I think if this principle is accurate for me and any person I've ever confronted about it, it's pretty safe to see it's the same for everyone else, since their bodies are governed by the laws of physics just like mine. The only actions that are not selfish are performed by species, like ants, where the population is more important than the organism, but here you can say that these actions are selfish from the perspective of the population.

Here it is again...

Yes it is

 

[Sunstone]

Can an unconditional love of God turn into, or be replaced by, a conditional love of God?

To illustrate, suppose that one day you have a direct experience of deity. Afterwards, you feel renewed. This feeling of renewal is so wonderous to you, and so desirable, that you want to experience it more often, and you begin praying for another direct experience of God in order to obtain that feeling of renewal again. Is it possible that at some point you might cease to love God unconditionally and instead love God for the feeling of renewal that She has given to you in the past? What do you think?

 

[lunamoth]

Can an unconditional love of God turn into, or be replaced by, a conditional love of God?

To illustrate, suppose that one day you have a direct experience of deity. Afterwards, you feel renewed. This feeling of renewal is so wonderous to you, and so desirable, that you want to experience it more often, and you begin praying for another direct experience of God in order to obtain that feeling of renewal again. Is it possible that at some point you might cease to love God unconditionally and instead love God for the feeling of renewal that She has given to you in the past? What do you think?

I think it happens all the time, for lots of people, some of the time or most of the time. It's rather hard for us to love unconditionally, each other or God. Probably our love for our children and parents comes closest. And it's pretty easy to get mad at God if you are attempting an honest relationship with him. The good news is that He does not stop loving us unconditionally.

2 c,
lunamoth

 

[lunamoth]

Can an unconditional love of God turn into, or be replaced by, a conditional love of God?

To illustrate, suppose that one day you have a direct experience of deity. Afterwards, you feel renewed. This feeling of renewal is so wonderous to you, and so desirable, that you want to experience it more often, and you begin praying for another direct experience of God in order to obtain that feeling of renewal again. Is it possible that at some point you might cease to love God unconditionally and instead love God for the feeling of renewal that She has given to you in the past? What do you think?

Oh yeah, meant to also say, regarding the desire to repeat a peak experience of God's love and then measuring your relationship with God by that. Yes, that's also a danger. Again, God does not stop loving us. :dan:

lunamoth

 

[sojourner]

So sojouner, if nothing is unconditional from a human perspective, and love is unconditional, then love does not exist from a human perspective?

Not at all. It simply means that we have a tendency to profane that which is divine.

 

[sojourner]

Well are you sure you don't love humans because it makes you feel good? What if loving humans would make you feel bad inside, would you still love them? What if hating humans would make you feel good? There is a reason for everything, the only difference between you saying that love can be unconditional and me saying it is always conditional is that I've found all sorts of primary reasons for that love and you haven't, probably because you look upon it as a more abstract, spiritual thing.



I know this because for every action I've ever done in my life, I have thought about the reason why I did what I did, and there was always a selfish reason for it. There was a time not long ago where I thought I did things just because they were good, and that these actions were not selfish at all, but somewhere along the line, I found out that if I looked deeper into myself, I could always find a selfish reason. I then confronted other people with this issue, and a lot of them admitted to this, while some did not, and after discussing with them (in real life) I could see they were either not being honest with themselves (because they were not willing to give up that romantic aspect of life) or just not looking deep enough into it. Now, over the internet, such a thing is much harder to notice of course, but I think if this principle is accurate for me and any person I've ever confronted about it, it's pretty safe to see it's the same for everyone else, since their bodies are governed by the laws of physics just like mine. The only actions that are not selfish are performed by species, like ants, where the population is more important than the organism, but here you can say that these actions are selfish from the perspective of the population.



Yes it is

I love people because I have experienced love from outside myself, and am comeplled to return that love outside myself. Be assured: If it's selfish, it's not love -- it's something else. If it's selfless, then it is love.

Is it possible for humans to purely love uncoditionally? Probably not, because human beings are imperfect. But we can always hold that ideal up as a standard to which we aspire, and which we hope can be borne out in our relationships with others.

As to your aprt of the post I've highlighted in red: Why should we want to give up the romantic aspects of life? Love, selflessness, beauty -- these are the things we live for. Romatic ideas and experiences are some of the most sublime a human being can have. Ouor lives are more than a bleak collage of bare facts and analysis.