Love your neighborhood Jew as yourself

[IndigoChild5559]

'We'? Look, it's one thing to dislike or hate folks, it's quite another to aid, abet and assist in crimes against them. So you're off on a hate campaign of your own, right there.
One Christian group was being murdered in those camps, you know. Now go and blame them.......

"We refered to me and the rest of the Jewish people.

I'm not on a hate campaign. I don't hate on Christians. I think the world is a better place when Christians are the best Christians they can be. But this is partly because Christianity as a whole has done an about face in regards to anti-Semitism, at least in the West. Look at Nostra Aetate in the Catholic Church and how it has embraced Jews as God's people, and denounced anti-Semitism -- it's now formal Catholic teaching. Evangelicals in particular are very fond of Jews, perhaps even overboard. I call them semitophiles. I think their reasons are a little iffy, but I don't really care why someone treats me well -- I'm just glad their not treating me badly.

I very gladly work together with Christians in my neck of the woods to house the homeless and and feed the poor and in general repair the world. I can have this good attitude towards Christians and still hold the church in general responsible for the evils done in the name of Jesus.

Many leaders in democratic countries have been elected on minority votes. Our own Winston Churchill held back Hitler after being placed into power by coalition.

You are missing the point. There is a difference between being voted in in and being an appointed official. Hitler was never EVER voted in. The least you can do is say thank you for updating your historical knowledge.

And there you go, ignoring the many millions who were murdered in those camps, one group being as large or larger than the Jewish victims, because you don't think that they were singled out.
Can't have that, I'm afraid, and every time you fail to include those groups with your own it is a tragic mistake.

I'm not ignoring them. They were there. But they didn't receive the degree of animus that the Jews received. There was no Final Solution for the Gypsies, Homosexuals, or Jehovah's Witnesses (of whom only about 1500 died). What I'm doing is putting things in perspective. To try to place these other persecuted groups on par with the Nazi persecution of the Jews is to warp the holocaust, and is a form of anti-Semitism.

I notice that you din't say 'We sit back'....... you doin' anything, or did you just want to keep pointing fingers?

I am ashamed that Jews as a whole have not done more collectively for these other genocides. The most I've heard is it mentioned at Passover Seder meals. It is also distressing to me that neither Israel nor the US has imposed sanctions of any sort. Nor have I seen any sustained UN action to condemn. I would hope that we would speak up and make a big stink.

What Jews do personally as individuals, I can't speak for. I wrote my representatives, and tried my best to raise people's consciousness. It is very distressing to me. Seriously, it makes me sick. The genocide in Myanmar is going on even as we speak. Who is lifting a finger to stop it? No one. God will judge the leaders of this world for their complacency.

 

[Kenny]

"
and still hold the church in general responsible for the evils done in the name of Jesus.
.

Just curious... how long will you hold this against the church in general?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Just curious... how long will you hold this against the church in general?

Until history can be changed. It's like asking when will you stop holding the Nazis responsible. However, I can forgive the church. The more the church accepts its responsibility and changes its ways, the easier it is to forgive. As I said, much of this has happened in the west. But the East is still entrenched in anti-Semitism, and you still have anti-Semtic individuals in the churches who don't get reigned in and disciplined.

 

[Kenny]

Until history can be changed. It's like asking when will you stop holding the Nazis responsible. However, I can forgive the church. The more the church accepts its responsibility and changes its ways, the easier it is to forgive. As I said, much of this has happened in the west. But the East is still entrenched in anti-Semitism, and you still have anti-Semtic individuals in the churches who don't get reigned in and disciplined.

You will always have anti-semitic people in as much as evil will always exist.

You will always have the Bonhoeffer's and the Cori Ten Boom's.

You will always have the Korah's and those who killed the prophets and you will always have the Moses and the Jeremiah's

But vengeance is the Lord's (Deut 32:35). I am glad you can forgive but II think once we place "the church" as the sole responsibility entity, we end up heaping the Bonhoeffer and Ten-Boom into the mix. "Nazis" is a group of Germans. But if you say "The Church" it is like saying "all of Germany"

I prefer Psalm 103:12 "as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us'" for God is the judge and His mercy is higher than the heavens to the earth.

Hurt people just keep hurting other people... but what one wants to carry or decides not to carry is a free will choice.

 

[oldbadger]

"We refered to me and the rest of the Jewish people.

That's dreadful, IndigoChild, to pretend that all the Jews partly blame all the Christians for the holocaust. Amazing.
If all the Christians had been hateful to all the Jews there would not have been many Jews in all those lands, I'm thinking.

No no....... Hitler was not a Christian either, by any means. Although he had been a choir boy (or altar boy) in youth, he had some sinister plans for the Vatican (in success).

I'm not on a hate campaign. I don't hate on Christians.

That's nice to read...... and so it would help enormously if you wouldn't suggest that Christians caused such a mass murder as happened.

I think the world is a better place when Christians are the best Christians they can be.

True of all people. Great when good, terrifying dreadful when bad. It's true that a very few Christians have some horrific ideas, but extreme fundamentalists of all kinds need to be kept down, yes?

I very gladly work together with Christians in my neck of the woods to house the homeless and and feed the poor and in general repair the world. I can have this good attitude towards Christians and still hold the church in general responsible for the evils done in the name of Jesus.

My goodness, IndigoChild, you'll be blaming the Quakers for everything soon, or the Spiritualist Christians, or whoever. I can't stop you but I won't be joining you in that.

You are missing the point. There is a difference between being voted in in and being an appointed official. Hitler was never EVER voted in. The least you can do is say thank you for updating your historical knowledge.

Thought for today:- * bbc.co.uk contribution
Hitler's rise to power cannot be attributed to one event, but a mixture of factors including events happening outside Germany, the strengths of the Nazi party, and the weaknesses of other parties within Germany. Hitler used these factors to his advantage and in 1933 he legitimately gained power to become chancellor.

I'm not ignoring them. They were there.

I think that you may have always ignored them...... just by reading recent, previous and next paras....

But they didn't receive the degree of animus that the Jews received. There was no Final Solution for the Gypsies,

Wow! Dreadful....... just dreadful./...
More than 200,000 gipsies

Homosexuals,

This could be viewed as homophobic, you know.
A Gestapo unit weas set up just to track down and detain the Gays....
tens of thousands of homosexuals
www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/history/mwh/.../hitlerpowerrev_print.shtml

or Jehovah's Witnesses (of whom only about 1500 died).

Only.....1500 ... !!! I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
That is anti-watchtower if I ever read anything like it.

What I'm doing is putting things in perspective.

Well, yes....... we're getting a picture all right. Your picture.
In the UK this would be considered as inappropriate, I feel sure. Our Equality Act 2010 covers all of the above groups including the next several groups that were victims of Hitler's psychotic genocidal crimes.
Between five and six million Jews.
More than three million Soviet prisoners of war
More than two million Soviet civilians
More than one million Polish civilians
More than one million Yugoslav civilians
About 70,000 men, women and children with mental and physical handicaps

To try to place these other persecuted groups on par with the Nazi persecution of the Jews is to warp the holocaust, and is a form of anti-Semitism.

Rubbish.
To try and ring that bell is just dreadfully wrong.

Indeed, to exclude all the other victims could well be viewed as very bad bigotry against a whole bunch of groups.... don't you see it now?

I am ashamed that Jews as a whole have not done more collectively for these other genocides.

Don't be...... it's all of humanity that must stand up for that shame.....

I'm not a gay, gypsy, JW, Jew, Christian, Eastern European, or disabled (although my wife thinks I'm totally demented) and so I don't have an agenda about this.

Indeed, my gentile father was buried in public by a well known Rabbi who used to be on UK radio and telly, an amazing and wonderful service it was too,,,,,,,

We must remember as many victims as possible from those years, or they may be forgotten.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

II think once we place "the church" as the sole responsibility entity, we end up heaping the Bonhoeffer and Ten-Boom into the mix. "Nazis" is a group of Germans. But if you say "The Church" it is like saying "all of Germany"

I never said that the Church was solely responsible. The nazis, with their neo-paganism, were wicked. Hitler bears personal responsibility.

You can't put Corrie ten Boom out there like her kind was indicative of half of Germany. Righteous Gentiles were extremely rare. She was the exception to the rule. We are discussing the rule.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's nice to read...... and so it would help enormously if

you wouldn't suggest that Christians caused such a mass murder as happened.

I'm not going to rewrite history just to make you comfortable.

Your opinions are what is known as rivisionist history. It is a form of holocaust denial light. I'm not saying that you personally are anti-Semitic (I don't know you well enough) but certainly in this matter you hold an anti-Semitic opinion.

The conventional, proven by evidence version of history that is accepted by the UK and every other nation, is that while many groups suffered in the holocause, no other group was singled out for specially deadly attention like the Jews. Sorry but the numbers you gave simply don't compare to six million. They don't, and it is moral equivocation for you to suggest that they do.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm not going to rewrite history just to make you comfortable.

Your opinions are what is known as rivisionist history. It is a form of holocaust denial light. I'm not saying that you personally are anti-Semitic (I don't know you well enough) but certainly in this matter you hold an anti-Semitic opinion.

The conventional, proven by evidence version of history that is accepted by the UK and every other nation, is that while many groups suffered in the holocause, no other group was singled out for specially deadly attention like the Jews. Sorry but the numbers you gave simply don't compare to six million. They don't, and it is moral equivocation for you to suggest that they do.

Ah ha.....!
You have denied the rights of all the other victims to recognition. I included everybody. You ignored millions and millions. Now there is prejudice for you, imo. A bit of an extremist opinion, maybe?

I don't need to rewrite history to include so many others. All of these groups of victims are now recognised, and for you to chuck insults at people because they included all victims seems to be a prejudice all of its own?

Certainly the gypsies, JWs, Gays, Eastern European cultures, Blacks, Disabled and more know where they stand with such as your opinions....... I do believe that you might write them out of history?

I think we're done here......... but by all means write the last words....

 

[Desert Snake]

Thank you! I really appreciate it. However, the angel in the burning bush has a different explanation. If you had a verse that said the law was given by angels, now that would be really something!!! If true, I'd really love to start a discussion with the Christians about that.

Without getting into a big essay about it, Protestants, or some protestant churches, used 'Jehovah', or variance, depending on language, but, same name, as the Abba, however the catholic church did not traditionally use this methodology, in the trinity concept. In other words, the the Abba, was simply Father, so forth. Note the 'difference', inherently, that interpretation, makes, thusly. You could say the protestants had or have more of a tradition, coinciding the OT, [ hebrew text, to the Nt, in general. That is sometimes, why, you will have a disparity, in Christian opinion. Now, as far as I know, even though ☆the Nt text seems to indicate the law as being given, by angels, most christians seem to believe, it was direct, by JHVH, or whatever language inference for that, they use, sometimes 'god', of course.
☆that is a question, of why...

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ah ha.....!
You have denied the rights of all the other victims to recognition.

Not at all. As I've already said, they were certainly persecuted. The point I've made is that they were not singled out for the particularly nasty, deadly treatment that was directed towards the Jews. History backs me up.

The discussion is over. We are simply repeating ourselves.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Without getting into a big essay about it, Protestants, or some protestant churches, used 'Jehovah', or variance, depending on language, but, same name, as the Abba, however the catholic church did not traditionally use this methodology, in the trinity concept. In other words, the the Abba, was simply Father, so forth. Note the 'difference', inherently, that interpretation, makes, thusly. You could say the protestants had or have more of a tradition, coinciding the OT, [ hebrew text, to the Nt, in general. That is sometimes, why, you will have a disparity, in Christian opinion. Now, as far as I know, even though ☆the Nt text seems to indicate the law as being given, by angels, most christians seem to believe, it was direct, by JHVH, or whatever language inference for that, they use, sometimes 'god', of course.
Studying the differences between Catholics and Protestants was a big part of my learning about Christianity. I am confident that there is no difference in their understanding of the Trinity. In both cases, they accept the yad hey and vav hey (which they transliterate variously or simply use LORD in all caps) as the sacred name of God. Catholics have a greater emphasis on the Tanakh, because they stress the 10 commandments and good works more; for example, they have a reading from the Tanakh at every Mass. Protestants mostly ignore the Tanakh and concentrate on Pauline teachings; some Protestant churches never read from the Tanakh at all. I'm not there aren't churches and denominations that aren't exceptions to the rule. But we're talking about the rule.

BTW, there is no J in Hebrew, so there is no JHVH. The only languages that use a J are those like German where a j makes a y sound.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Now, as far as I know, even though ☆the Nt text seems to indicate the law as being given, by angels, most christians seem to believe, it was direct, by JHVH, or whatever language inference for that, they use, sometimes 'god', of course.
☆that is a question, of why...

I finally got around to research this and after googling "law angels" I found this verse:
Acts 7:53 - you who received the law as ordained by angels

I asked my Christian friends how they interpreted it, and they simply said that God gave the law, speaking through angels. This is basically the same thing that Jews do with the burning bush. IOW , Yes Christians believe it was God who gave the law. Angels were just the intermediaries (like Moses).

 

[Desert Snake]

I finally got around to research this and after googling "law angels" I found this verse:
Acts 7:53 - you who received the law as ordained by angels

I asked my Christian friends how they interpreted it, and they simply said that God gave the law, speaking through angels. This is basically the same thing that Jews do with the burning bush. IOW , Yes Christians believe it was God who gave the law. Angels were just the intermediaries (like Moses).

Book of Galatians, does delineate, between, the nature of the law, [as given, and, the Covenant, to Abram, as given. Clearly, this was a belief, at least among some of the Biblical Christians.
Galatians 3:20
Is referring to this 'difference', and, considering the references to angels, there is no reason to believe, that these inferences, are 'saying', Moses was less of a proper intermediary, than Abram.
In other words, the nature of the difference, is the manner, and notation, [Moses and priests, via angel[s, as opposed to direct, to Abram.
Now...how 'literal', is this intent of meaning. We know that the Biblical Christians, seemed to support Moses, they clearly did not consider the whole law, as presented in teaching, and somewhat, even the 'bible', as relating to Moses.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Book of Galatians, does delineate, between, the nature of the law, [as given, and, the Covenant, to Abram, as given. Clearly, this was a belief, at least among some of the Biblical Christians.
Galatians 3:20
Is referring to this 'difference', and, considering the references to angels, there is no reason to believe, that these inferences, are 'saying', Moses was less of a proper intermediary, than Abram.
In other words, the nature of the difference, is the manner, and notation, [Moses and priests, via angel[s, as opposed to direct, to Abram.
Now...how 'literal', is this intent of meaning. We know that the Biblical Christians, seemed to support Moses, they clearly did not consider the whole law, as presented in teaching, and somewhat, even the 'bible', as relating to Moses.

I'm not following you at all. You seem to be saying that Abram received his covenant from God directly without angelic intermediaries, while Moses required angelic intermediaries. I don't know why you would conclude that. There are references to the Angel of the LORD in Genesis. Enough that it forms pattern. I personally think that God always uses messengers when he wants to audibly speak to us. It is not necessary that this always be mentioned in the text.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm not following you at all. You seem to be saying that Abram received his covenant from God directly without angelic intermediaries, while Moses required angelic intermediaries. I don't know why you would conclude that. There are references to the Angel of the LORD in Genesis. Enough that it forms pattern. I personally think that God always uses messengers when he wants to audibly speak to us. It is not necessary that this always be mentioned in the text.

Actually, I'm presenting things that are in the Bible, this material is apparent from the texts. It can, make sense, actually, however does not correlate to Judaism, interpretation, of the texts, etc.
Note that, again, the Biblical Christians, support Moses. They are not correlating the 'priestly law', that we know now, with Moses, in entirety.
Now, is this because, some priests were worshipping angels...in the book of Galatians, we get both inference to 'foreign ideas', and revelation, to Moses, [who they support. However, the Christians generally support Moses. This clearly isn't a "contradiction", in their beliefs, it's very fundamental, to their beliefs. They do not equate what is generally taught as the law, entirely, with Moses.

 

[Kenny]

I never said that the Church was solely responsible. The nazis, with their neo-paganism, were wicked. Hitler bears personal responsibility.

You can't put Corrie ten Boom out there like her kind was indicative of half of Germany. Righteous Gentiles were extremely rare. She was the exception to the rule. We are discussing the rule.

I'm not sure that was the rule either... but if forgiveness is given and we always confront hatred when we see it, we pray that these types of things happen no more.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Now, is this because, some priests were worshipping angels...in the book of Galatians, we get both inference to 'foreign ideas', and revelation, to Moses, [who they support. However, the Christians generally support Moses. This clearly isn't a "contradiction", in their beliefs, it's very fundamental, to their beliefs. They do not equate what is generally taught as the law, entirely, with Moses.

It is simply arrogant for you to way "I am presenting things that are in the Bible." We are all doing so. It is only our interpretations that differ. For example, I don't think angels were worshiped as a deity. I think they were honored and venerated as powerful messengers of the Most High. In older English, the word worship did not have the connotation of that which belonged only to God, but included veneration. However, today, the word worship implies that which belongs to God alone, and we make use of the word venerated, invented by Catholics, which refers to the extreme honor and reverence given to beings above us but which falls short of that worship given to God alone.

Are you a Jehovah's Witness? Y/N If not, could you give a one paragraph outline of your most basic beliefs, including the nature of God and Jesus. Thanks.

 

[Desert Snake]

It is simply arrogant for you to way "I am presenting things that are in the Bible." We are all doing so. It is only our interpretations that differ. For example, I don't think angels were worshiped as a deity. I think they were honored and venerated as powerful messengers of the Most High. In older English, the word worship did not have the connotation of that which belonged only to God, but included veneration. However, today, the word worship implies that which belongs to God alone, and we make use of the word venerated, invented by Catholics, which refers to the extreme honor and reverence given to beings above us but which falls short of that worship given to God alone.

As to what every verse means regarding that, is speculation. One might speculate, it means good angels, one might speculate, it means fallen angels. Perhaps it varies.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not sure that was the rule either... but if forgiveness is given and we always confront hatred when we see it, we pray that these types of things happen no more.

It begins with with those few Christians who repeatedly refer to Jews as stiffnecked to stop.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

As to what every verse means regarding that, is speculation. One might speculate, it means good angels, one might speculate, it means fallen angels. Perhaps it varies.

You didn't answer my question about if you are a JW, and what you basic religious beliefs are. I'm relatively new here, and would like to get to know you better.