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Featured Love your neighborhood Jew as yourself

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    How is it that these days, when so many Christians are Israel's best ally, that we still have Christians openly insulting Jews? And to twist the knife, the Bible gets used as the excuse!

    Robin, perhaps this seems like some little nothing to you, but it gets under my skin. Of all the things I could have chosen, I picked this issue as one of the three that I wished to discuss with you, this idea that you have that it is okay to constantly refer to the Jews as "stubborn," or as some Christians say it, "stiff necked."

    Let me tell you a little story. Jim was sitting with his wife and friends at a local bar. His wife mentioned going for dinner at her sisters again and he had had one too many. "Why do you keep bringing that up? I'm telling you for the hundredth time we ain't going. I swear to God you are more stubborn than a mule. Now shut up about it." It was a bit awkward, but the conversation shifted. Ten minutes later, JIm's friend was trying to get Jim's wife to drive them to the beach the next day, but she stuck to her guns and turned him down. "Wow, you really are a stubborn mule!" said Jim's friend. Jim slammed down his mug and said, "What did you just call my wife?" "Hey, man. You yourself was just sayin' she was a stubborn mule." Jim looked at his friend with daggers in his eyes. "Look, FRIEND. She's my WIFE. We have an intimate like relationship. She knows I love her. Who the bleep are YOU that you think you can say something like that to MY wife?"

    It's not the best story, but it does the trick. Through the Tanakh, God gives terms of endearment for Israel. Israel is his Bride. Israel is his firstborn son. All these things speak to the intimate relationship we have with the Lord. I'm sorry, but we don't have an intimate relationship with Christians. What we have with Christians is a 2000 year long history of persecution and pogroms, and, ultimately, the Holocaust. For a Christian to call us stubborn, it has a whole different context. It is seen as simply a continuation of that 2000 year history.

    You asked, if it's the truth, why can't I say it? Because it is not always moral to say the truth, in little ways and big ways. If your wife asks you if she looks fat, and she does, you don't say yes. You tell her she looks sweet, or some other truth that indirectly gets around answering the question. I can think of a particular religious group some of whose adherents tend to be triumphalist, presumptive, and prideful, but I don't come into the forum and talk about that group that way. First , it's not rational to blame an entire group for some of it's members. But also---IT'S JUST RUDE. IT'S MEAN to publicly insult people.

    And it doesn't love my neighbor as myself. Do I want others talking about my flaws? No. So I mustn't be petty and talk that way about them. As Rabbi Hillel said, What is hateful to you, don't do to others. Or, if you wish, you could take Jesus' hint and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
     
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  2. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Jesus said, "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself". Nothing else is needed.
     
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  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Very few Jews read the Gospels, but those who do are struck by how Jewish they are. When Jesus says to love God and your neighbor as yourself, he is not only quoting the Torah, but he is picking out the same two laws that the Rabbis say are foundational. It is amazing to me that a man that was obviously an observant Jew like Jesus became an inspiration to the whole world.

    It would be a whole awful lot easier for me to figure out if Christians hadn't tried to persecute and kill us for 2000 years. Somehow that just messes up the "God sent Jesus to the Gentiles" kind of theory.

    But enough griping about Christians. They've been a lot better since the Holocaust. At least the ones in the West. Here's looking forward to a brighter future.
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    They were written by Jews....I guess that solves the problem. ;)

    It is interesting what Jesus said of the religious leaders of his day....

    " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
    (Matthew 23:37-39)

    Jesus was highlighting the fact that Israel's history concerning the prophets that God had sent to them in the past were ignored and silenced. He came to heal the Jewish people, but the Jews who adhered to the teachings of the Pharisees did not want to be healed. They had acted just as their forefathers had done and we believe that they killed the last prophet that God sent to them. There would be no more.

    Jesus took the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" and separated them from a corrupted religious system that was based on the traditions of men and the unlawful twisting of scripture.

    Actually Christendom is a mirror image of Judaism. Just as the Jews persecuted the Christians in the beginning, the Christians ended up persecuting the Jews....and each other....but not by following the teachings of Jesus Christ. His teaching was to "love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself". Jesus was of course quoting the Hebrew scriptures.....these were the only scriptures he had.
    Jesus was never sent to the Gentiles...he was sent exclusively to his fellow Jews. The gathering of the Gentiles came after his death and resurrection. This was in fulfillment of God's covenant with Abraham for the blessing of all nations through the coming seed. (Genesis 22:18)

    Politically, there seems to be nations who support Israel because they seem to think that hanging onto Israel's coattails, they will get a blessing for their efforts. (Zechariah 8:23) I personally don't believe that applies in the political sense. I believe it applies spiritually.

    What brighter future do Jewish people look forward to today? Israel is hardly enjoying peace is it? What do you expect the future to hold for you all?
     
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  5. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that true for most religions that expect a miraculous event like the coming of the Messiah, a second coming, or maybe even a third? That it's all "under satan" or some other corruption now, but then there is a miracle reversal.
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Why do you think that is?
     
  7. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    It's not my job to question why people believe it. I just find it odd if you put "the question" on someone else, when your religion is faced with the same situation as you describe. Not saying you shouldn't.
     
  8. Earthling

    Earthling David Henson
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    To me there are three issues related to this subject. Religious, historical and political.

    I consider it vital to be fair and even handed when criticizing people. To do otherwise would be dishonest and nonconstructive. Religiously speaking the Jews and the Christians are guilty of senselessly murdering one another. And they are both guilty of defiling their own religious teachings through the apostasy of pagan influence. The Jews through Alexander the Great beginning in earnest in 332 B.C.E. and the Christians through Constantine the Great beginning in earnest in 325 C.E.

    Historically they have both been guilty of persecuting the other shamelessly.

    You mentioned the holocaust, not surprisingly. Though I'm homosexual and some of my family are Jehovah's Witnesses and my beliefs are very similar, I know that historically speaking homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned along with the Jews in German concentration camps. Not one homosexual, not one Jehovah's Witness, not one Jew was killed in the gas chambers of the German concentration camps. And, there were British and American concentration camps throughout Europe who's prisoners died in similar numbers as the German ones. About 97,000. Not six million. To say otherwise is dishonest Russian and American propaganda.

    Politically speaking, the Americans, British and modern day Israel are the true "axis of evil." War mongering monsters who, fortunately, will all be destroyed by Jehovah God and their kingdoms replaced by his.
     
    #8 Earthling, Sep 21, 2018
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  9. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Yes, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The whole the commandments hinge on these two simple principles.

    As a Christian, who loves Israel and the Jewish people, I ask forgiveness for what others have done in the name of the Christ. A violation of love for which he stands for and an affront to what he came for and did.
     
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  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The OP is very well said, imo, but the problem is that there are so many who take the "my way or the highway" position, thus only their way really matters to them.

    One can build walls or bridges, and I much more personally prefer the latter.
     
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  11. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    Alright, hold on.
    Are you saying that around 97,000 people died in the Holocaust overall, or are you saying that around 97,000 of a specific minority died in the Holocaust?
     
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  12. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    I think that some Christians, especially in the evangelical community, are fans of israel because they act under the principle that the enemy of my enemy (Islam) is my friend.

    However, other than that, Christians are not friends of Jews. Cannot be. They share the same God, they were the closest to what happened 2000 years ago, and yet they did not buy that Jesus myth. That is thorn in their side.

    Just take a look at what Luther wrote about the Jews and at the criminal history of Christianity (KH Deschner). Christianity made Hitler look like a beginner when it comes to jewish persecution.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Unfortunately the Bible says a great deal more than that.
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    Unfortunately you appear to trying to rewrite the history of the Holocaust in an egregious degrading manner insulting the millions that died in the Holocaust.

    40 Holocaust Facts that will shock you - Serious Facts
     
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  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It's bizarre how Christians always get blamed.

    On one hand you say that not all Jews should be blamed for the actions of a few (true) but then you also say that to Jews; Christians are nothing but pogroms, persecutions etc.

    What about Jews insulting Christians their "best ally"?

    And then you blame Christians for the holocaust! Look who rescued the Jews from the holocaust? American, British and Russians. America largely a Christian nation and so is Britain. So much for Christians causing the holocaust.

    And one of Hitler's main excuses for the holocaust was obviously Darwinian evolution. A distinctly un-Christian idea. He did play on "Christianity" as an added excuse to persecute Jews but then that's what sociopaths do. They use any advantage.
     
    #15 74x12, Sep 21, 2018
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  16. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Actually, it was the Roman Catholic church, with their replacement theology and belief they they had taken the place of Israel in God's plan, which persecuted and slaughtered Jews all across Europe during the first crusade under Pope Irvin, also killing Arabs and Muslims and every Jew in Jerusalem. This political/religious Roman Catholic organization may have made Hitler look like a beginner with regard to persecution of the Jews, but it was not your average Christian or Christianity based on the love or teachings of Christ.
     
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  17. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    Yeah, well. Catholics were the only Christians around for most of Christianity life cycle until very recently.

    And probably the average German soldier during WW2 was not that bad, either. But that does not entail that he was not part of a criminal organization. Whether he wanted or not.

    Because if we go through past and present history, that is what organized Christianity is. A wolf dressed as a sheep. Read Deschner to see how what happened to Europe a few centuries ago was nothing short of a cancer.

    Now they try to either rape kids or turn them into ignorant fools rejecting science in favor of fairy tales involving stories written by some ancient goat herders. Or both.

    So, they have not lost the vice. i am afraid.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
    #17 viole, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  18. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Yes, that did happen, and I certainly am not excusing that in any way, but let me remind you that it also happened with the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe and the Lutheran Church in Germany and several other countries in Europe. As a matter of fact, the Lutheran reaction in Germany was actually worse than the Catholic one, and Hitler very much catered to the former. The NAZI Nuremberg Laws were taken from Luther's ant-Jewish regulations.

    At least the Catholic Church on numerous occasions has officially apologized, organized overseers to try and make sure it doesn't happen again, and have conduced numerous joint Jewish/Catholic workshops and even services. My understanding is that most other Christian groups have not done that. Has yours?
     
  19. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. They believe a Jewish conspiracy and thought some of Darwin's theory to be decadent. Their ideas of racial purity were completely hogwash and against "Darwinism" or evolution for that matter.
     
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  20. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point that they believed in a Jewish conspiracy. But yes their ideas of racial supremacy were based (at least partly) off of the concept of evolution.
     
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