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Featured Love your enemies. Really!?!

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Mark Dohle, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    You have still not answered the question of how to determine if a person is “actually” a Christian. Everything in the Bible has been interpreted and cherry picked into oblivion. There is no objective standard
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Are you asking how to determine what a Christian is, or how to know if the Bible is true? The former has been answered - maybe there is no answer that will satisfy you.
     
  3. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Your answer was non-specific. I asked for a universally accepted way for people (both Christian and non-Christian) to sort out who is actually a Christian. You resorted to a bible passage about works, which does not answer the question. so, no, your kind of answer is not satisfactory to me. Who gets to decide what "fruit" is good and what is bad? You just pushed the question back.
     
  4. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    You are changing words.....are we talking about bad fruit or rotten fruit, then?
    I don't care about the disciples, they are dead and gone. Let's stay in the present.
    Festus is dead and gone as well, so he is of no use.
    You have yet to tell me how one can objectively tell when a person is a Christian.
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    You did? Where? I can't read your mind, so show me where you asked that, 'cause I might have missed it.
    What is Christian and non-Christian?

    Worthless.
    [​IMG] ?What are we talking about again?
     
  6. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    I asked originally, "The problem with that is that there are thousands of definitions of what a Christian is. Who gets to decide?" and then you started quoting scripture about fruit.
    It was in Post #53
     
  7. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    It also needs to be understood in the context of the passage. In the story, Jesus explicitly says "do not resist an evil person." Turning the other cheek is given as an example of this principle.

    I think it's a bit disingenuous to spin it to mean "DO resist an evil person, but do it sneakily."
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Jesus explains what it means right in the same verse:

    Matt 5:39
    But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    But what's the reason behind, turning the other cheek.What is the other person doing, that is causing the other person to strike them on the cheek ?
     
  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    If you consider someone your enemy, I won't believe you when you say you love them.

    If you actually loved them, you wouldn't view them as your enemy.
     
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  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Possibly nothing. The passage implies that Jesus is talking about something that's undeserved.
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    ...and I showed you that you were wrong about that, and showed you the answer. Did you see that, or did you skip that and just read the end about fruit - Post #56?
     
  13. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    This has been clarified in detail in the Baha'i writings, one must Love without conditions;

    "Bahá’u’lláh has clearly said in His Tablets that if you have an enemy, consider him not as an enemy. Do not simply be long-suffering; nay, rather, love him. Your treatment of him should be that which is becoming to lovers. Do not even say that he is your enemy. Do not see any enemies. Though he be your murderer, see no enemy. Look upon him with the eye of friendship. Be mindful that you do not consider him as an enemy and simply tolerate him, for that is but stratagem and hypocrisy. To consider a man your enemy and love him is hypocrisy. This is not becoming of any soul. You must behold him as a friend. You must treat him well. This is right." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 267)

    There is more advice at this link -

    Enemy

    This is a challenge for all of us.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    9-10ths_Penguin, I hope you don't mind my jumping in here.
    Earlier, I thought you did a good job in using the context of the verse.
    You referred to the statement, "But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer".
    So we know an evildoer is someone who seeks more-so, to do evil to another. Automatically the evildoer makes himself an enemy of the person. The person has not made the evildoer an enemy.

    I was thinking though of your earlier post.
    The context also includes the previous statement, or phrase, "You heard that it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth", then it is followed by, "However..."
    So taking that into consideration, it would seem that Jesus is discouraging paying back, or taking revenge, or retaliating, against one that does evil against us - our enemy.

    It brings to mind Romans 12:17-21 17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

    Paul here quotes Proverbs 24:29, and helps me to appreciate that Jesus is really saying, yield to God's wrath. In other words leave it in God's hand. Let him be the one to take vengeance.

    Sorry @Faithofchristian if I interrupted you.
     
  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    What you have said is correct.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    Those words sound fine, and I suppose there are noble.
    It sounds though that one is being asked to remove the thought from one's mind. Not that that is a bad thing, because Jesus did say, do not be anxious about anything, but he was not saying we don't have problems.

    So while the problem is real - it does exist. Jesus tells us, do not stress about it. In the same way, an enemy may be real - they exist - Someone may actually by trying to get rid of us literally, but Jesus says, "Love them." Not pretend they are not an enemy (ignore that fact), but love them. It helps then to think of two things - why your enemy hates you. and why you should love them.

    He says,
    44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:44-48)

    It is the same as facing a severe trial. We may want the trial to disappear, but when we endure it, even knowing full well it is there, we benefit. James 1:2-4
    So for me, it comes down to how we deal with reality.
     
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  17. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I understand your point of view.
    Just a question.
    Someone is seeking you harm. Perhaps bodily harm, emotional harm, in one form or other. Some people use different methods to accomplish this - murder you or a family member. Burn down your property, etc.
    Is this person your enemy?
     
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  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Mathew 25:40 has always been my favorite verse in regards to christian actions. Whatever you do for someone else you do for christ.

    So if you dont love your enemy, you dont love christ. Separating god, christ, believer, and people leads to a lot of hurt from a christian scriptual perspective.

    Once you understand what you do for others has a direct affect on christ, Id assume people would think twice in what they do...

    and think more of what they can do, love their enemies and even better dont call them enemies. You call them an enemy, you are one too. Change perspective helps see others as ones self.

    Takes time and practice.
     
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  19. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    The actions undertaken are the issue here.

    A big part of Love is justice. So when we love the person, it is just to address the actions. In this way, love of the person guides our approach as to how we address the modification of the actions.

    I see humanity as a whole has to find this way to love. When we do start to, our unity will also start to unfold.

    Regards Tony
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The passage implies that the person did something that was deserved, for the other person to strike them.
     
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