Love your enemies. Really!?!

[Milton Platt]

I suggest you not call the trees in your orchard rotten, just because the fruit are different. Different doesn't mean rotten.

I understand your point of view.
I do not have a problem if persons want to accept anyone who claim to be a Christian, to be such. We all have our choices to make.

However, If I were hiring an acrobat, or juggler for my circus, and they couldn't perform, they wouldn't be joining my circus.
Another person may not mind the imitations, but they have to decide what they want their circus to be like.

Since you mentioned denominations or religions, then that is the way I look at it.
The disciples were called Christians. They were known as those who followed Jesus, by what they taught, and how they lived.
Festus could tell the difference.

Today, I see it the same way.
Either a religion is following Jesus, its teachings and practices, or it is not following Jesus.
Individuals, in that religion will either practice what they preach or not, but I am not the one to judge them.
However, as with first century Christians, there are measures pu in place, to keep the Christian congregation clean.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13


This way, it becomes possible for people with honest heart to find the way to God. Those who are not really honest hearted, will remain in the dark - confused. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

You have still not answered the question of how to determine if a person is “actually” a Christian. Everything in the Bible has been interpreted and cherry picked into oblivion. There is no objective standard

 

[nPeace]

You have still not answered the question of how to determine if a person is “actually” a Christian. Everything in the Bible has been interpreted and cherry picked into oblivion. There is no objective standard

Are you asking how to determine what a Christian is, or how to know if the Bible is true? The former has been answered - maybe there is no answer that will satisfy you.

 

[Milton Platt]

Are you asking how to determine what a Christian is, or how to know if the Bible is true? The former has been answered - maybe there is no answer that will satisfy you.

Your answer was non-specific. I asked for a universally accepted way for people (both Christian and non-Christian) to sort out who is actually a Christian. You resorted to a bible passage about works, which does not answer the question. so, no, your kind of answer is not satisfactory to me. Who gets to decide what "fruit" is good and what is bad? You just pushed the question back.

 

[Milton Platt]

I suggest you not call the trees in your orchard rotten, just because the fruit are different. Different doesn't mean rotten.

I understand your point of view.
I do not have a problem if persons want to accept anyone who claim to be a Christian, to be such. We all have our choices to make.

However, If I were hiring an acrobat, or juggler for my circus, and they couldn't perform, they wouldn't be joining my circus.
Another person may not mind the imitations, but they have to decide what they want their circus to be like.

Since you mentioned denominations or religions, then that is the way I look at it.
The disciples were called Christians. They were known as those who followed Jesus, by what they taught, and how they lived.
Festus could tell the difference.

Today, I see it the same way.
Either a religion is following Jesus, its teachings and practices, or it is not following Jesus.
Individuals, in that religion will either practice what they preach or not, but I am not the one to judge them.
However, as with first century Christians, there are measures pu in place, to keep the Christian congregation clean.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13


This way, it becomes possible for people with honest heart to find the way to God. Those who are not really honest hearted, will remain in the dark - confused. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

You are changing words.....are we talking about bad fruit or rotten fruit, then?
I don't care about the disciples, they are dead and gone. Let's stay in the present.
Festus is dead and gone as well, so he is of no use.
You have yet to tell me how one can objectively tell when a person is a Christian.

 

[nPeace]

Your answer was non-specific. I asked for a universally accepted way for people (both Christian and non-Christian) to sort out who is actually a Christian.
You resorted to a bible passage about works, which does not answer the question. so, no, your kind of answer is not satisfactory to me. Who gets to decide what "fruit" is good and what is bad? You just pushed the question back.

You did? Where? I can't read your mind, so show me where you asked that, 'cause I might have missed it.
What is Christian and non-Christian?

You are changing words.....are we talking about bad fruit or rotten fruit, then?

Worthless.

I don't care about the disciples, they are dead and gone. Let's stay in the present.
Festus is dead and gone as well, so he is of no use.
You have yet to tell me how one can objectively tell when a person is a Christian.

?What are we talking about again?

 

[Milton Platt]

You did? Where? I can't read your mind, so show me where you asked that, 'cause I might have missed it.
What is Christian and non-Christian?


Worthless.

?What are we talking about again?

I asked originally, "The problem with that is that there are thousands of definitions of what a Christian is. Who gets to decide?" and then you started quoting scripture about fruit.
It was in Post #53

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

'Turn the other cheek' needs to be understood within context of time and culture. It is actually non violent resistance. The same principle may be the Mahatma, Martin Luther King.

http://www.holytextures.com/turn-the-other-cheek-nonviolent-resistance-to-violence.html

It also needs to be understood in the context of the passage. In the story, Jesus explicitly says "do not resist an evil person." Turning the other cheek is given as an example of this principle.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to spin it to mean "DO resist an evil person, but do it sneakily."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Would you care to explain exactly what it means to turn the other cheek ?

Jesus explains what it means right in the same verse:

Matt 5:39
But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Jesus explains what it means right in the same verse:

Matt 5:39
But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.

But what's the reason behind, turning the other cheek.What is the other person doing, that is causing the other person to strike them on the cheek ?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Love your enemies. Really!?!

If you consider someone your enemy, I won't believe you when you say you love them.

If you actually loved them, you wouldn't view them as your enemy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But what's the reason behind, turning the other cheek.What is the other person doing, that is causing the other person to strike them on the cheek ?

Possibly nothing. The passage implies that Jesus is talking about something that's undeserved.

 

[nPeace]

I asked originally, "The problem with that is that there are thousands of definitions of what a Christian is. Who gets to decide?" and then you started quoting scripture about fruit.
It was in Post #53

...and I showed you that you were wrong about that, and showed you the answer. Did you see that, or did you skip that and just read the end about fruit - Post #56?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To love my neighbor as myself. Not sure I love myself. Yet I am commanded to do so. How does that happen?

This has been clarified in detail in the Baha'i writings, one must Love without conditions;

"Bahá’u’lláh has clearly said in His Tablets that if you have an enemy, consider him not as an enemy. Do not simply be long-suffering; nay, rather, love him. Your treatment of him should be that which is becoming to lovers. Do not even say that he is your enemy. Do not see any enemies. Though he be your murderer, see no enemy. Look upon him with the eye of friendship. Be mindful that you do not consider him as an enemy and simply tolerate him, for that is but stratagem and hypocrisy. To consider a man your enemy and love him is hypocrisy. This is not becoming of any soul. You must behold him as a friend. You must treat him well. This is right." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 267)

There is more advice at this link -

Enemy

This is a challenge for all of us.

Regards Tony

 

[nPeace]

If you consider someone your enemy, I won't believe you when you say you love them.

If you actually loved them, you wouldn't view them as your enemy.

9-10ths_Penguin, I hope you don't mind my jumping in here.
Earlier, I thought you did a good job in using the context of the verse.
You referred to the statement, "But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer".
So we know an evildoer is someone who seeks more-so, to do evil to another. Automatically the evildoer makes himself an enemy of the person. The person has not made the evildoer an enemy.

I was thinking though of your earlier post.
The context also includes the previous statement, or phrase, "You heard that it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth", then it is followed by, "However..."
So taking that into consideration, it would seem that Jesus is discouraging paying back, or taking revenge, or retaliating, against one that does evil against us - our enemy.

It brings to mind Romans 12:17-21 17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

Paul here quotes Proverbs 24:29, and helps me to appreciate that Jesus is really saying, yield to God's wrath. In other words leave it in God's hand. Let him be the one to take vengeance.

Sorry @Faithofchristian if I interrupted you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you consider someone your enemy, I won't believe you when you say you love them.

If you actually loved them, you wouldn't view them as your enemy.

This has been clarified in detail in the Baha'i writings, one must Love without conditions;

"Bahá’u’lláh has clearly said in His Tablets that if you have an enemy, consider him not as an enemy. Do not simply be long-suffering; nay, rather, love him. Your treatment of him should be that which is becoming to lovers. Do not even say that he is your enemy. Do not see any enemies. Though he be your murderer, see no enemy. Look upon him with the eye of friendship. Be mindful that you do not consider him as an enemy and simply tolerate him, for that is but stratagem and hypocrisy. To consider a man your enemy and love him is hypocrisy. This is not becoming of any soul. You must behold him as a friend. You must treat him well. This is right." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 267)

There is more advice at this link -

Enemy

This is a challenge for all of us.

Regards Tony

What you have said is correct.

Regards Tony

 

[nPeace]

This has been clarified in detail in the Baha'i writings, one must Love without conditions;

"Bahá’u’lláh has clearly said in His Tablets that if you have an enemy, consider him not as an enemy. Do not simply be long-suffering; nay, rather, love him. Your treatment of him should be that which is becoming to lovers. Do not even say that he is your enemy. Do not see any enemies. Though he be your murderer, see no enemy. Look upon him with the eye of friendship. Be mindful that you do not consider him as an enemy and simply tolerate him, for that is but stratagem and hypocrisy. To consider a man your enemy and love him is hypocrisy. This is not becoming of any soul. You must behold him as a friend. You must treat him well. This is right." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 267)

There is more advice at this link -

Enemy

This is a challenge for all of us.

Regards Tony

Those words sound fine, and I suppose there are noble.
It sounds though that one is being asked to remove the thought from one's mind. Not that that is a bad thing, because Jesus did say, do not be anxious about anything, but he was not saying we don't have problems.

So while the problem is real - it does exist. Jesus tells us, do not stress about it. In the same way, an enemy may be real - they exist - Someone may actually by trying to get rid of us literally, but Jesus says, "Love them." Not pretend they are not an enemy (ignore that fact), but love them. It helps then to think of two things - why your enemy hates you. and why you should love them.

He says,
44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:44-48)

It is the same as facing a severe trial. We may want the trial to disappear, but when we endure it, even knowing full well it is there, we benefit. James 1:2-4
So for me, it comes down to how we deal with reality.

 

[nPeace]

What you have said is correct.

Regards Tony

I understand your point of view.
Just a question.
Someone is seeking you harm. Perhaps bodily harm, emotional harm, in one form or other. Some people use different methods to accomplish this - murder you or a family member. Burn down your property, etc.
Is this person your enemy?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Very interesting post.
I love the picture. It's very touching, although I am not sure the girl isn't more comfortable without shoes. Some persons tend to prefer going barefoot.

However, I would sum up the way I see it, with this one text.
John 14:6, 7
6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also; from this moment on you know him and have seen him.”

That one text reveals a fundamental truth.
Jesus is the way - the way to the father, the truth - the truth of the father, and the life - the life from the father.

This reveals that formally mankind was separated from these. The way of love was not known.

Edited:
I should have mentioned that this explains why it is / was easier for humans to do the things you mentioned - steal, rape, murder...
Therefore, those who follow the way, do not practice those things. They become changed at heart. Ephesians 2:1, 2; 4:20-6:20

Expanding on the text...

The Jews understood the "Old Testament" was about the provision for salvation (the Messiah) from man's separation from God, and life - everlasting life.

Matthew 22:16 . . .So they sent their disciples to him, together with party followers of Herod, saying: “Teacher, we know you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and you do not seek anyone’s favor, for you do not look at the outward appearance of people.

Mark 1:3 . . .A voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah! Make his roads straight.’”

Mark 10:42-45
42 But Jesus called them to him and said to them: “You know that those who appear to be ruling the nations lord it over them and their great ones wield authority over them. 43 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 44 and whoever wants to be first among you must be the slave of all. 45 For even the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”

This was the message of all the prophets. They all prophesied about the Messiah - the means of salvation... the way to God and life.

Luke 1:67-79
67 Then Zechariah his father was filled with holy spirit, and he prophesied, saying: 68 “Let Jehovah be praised, the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention to his people and has brought them deliverance. 69 And he has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David his servant, 70 just as he has spoken through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, 71 of a salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all those hating us; 72 to show mercy in connection with our forefathers and to call to mind his holy covenant, 73 the oath that he swore to Abraham our forefather, 74 to grant us, after we have been rescued from the hands of enemies, the privilege of fearlessly rendering sacred service to him 75 with loyalty and righteousness before him all our days. 76 But as for you, young child, you will be called a prophet of the Most High, for you will go ahead of Jehovah to prepare his ways, 77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins, 78 because of the tender compassion of our God. With this compassion a daybreak will visit us from on high, 79 to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow and to guide our feet in the way of peace.”

Concerning John the baptist, who prepared the way of the Messiah.
Luke 3:3-6
3 So he went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching baptism in symbol of repentance for forgiveness of sins, 4 just as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: “A voice of one crying out in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah! Make his roads straight. 5 Every valley must be filled up, and every mountain and hill leveled; the crooked ways must become straight, and the rough ways smooth; 6 and all flesh will see the salvation of God.’”

This is the backbone of the Bible's message that started from Genesis, and ran right through to Revelation.
This message cannot be learned in one sitting. It takes weeks, but once one get's the message, the pieces of the puzzle falls into place to form a beautiful picture.

What Is the Bible's Message?

Mathew 25:40 has always been my favorite verse in regards to christian actions. Whatever you do for someone else you do for christ.

So if you dont love your enemy, you dont love christ. Separating god, christ, believer, and people leads to a lot of hurt from a christian scriptual perspective.

Once you understand what you do for others has a direct affect on christ, Id assume people would think twice in what they do...

and think more of what they can do, love their enemies and even better dont call them enemies. You call them an enemy, you are one too. Change perspective helps see others as ones self.

Takes time and practice.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I understand your point of view.
Just a question.
Someone is seeking you harm. Perhaps bodily harm, emotional harm, in one form or other. Some people use different methods to accomplish this - murder you or a family member. Burn down your property, etc.
Is this person your enemy?

The actions undertaken are the issue here.

A big part of Love is justice. So when we love the person, it is just to address the actions. In this way, love of the person guides our approach as to how we address the modification of the actions.

I see humanity as a whole has to find this way to love. When we do start to, our unity will also start to unfold.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithofchristian]

Possibly nothing. The passage implies that Jesus is talking about something that's undeserved.

The passage implies that the person did something that was deserved, for the other person to strike them.