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Featured Love and Rebellion

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by David Davidovich, Apr 18, 2022.

  1. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Except you’re missing Peter, James, John, Paul,
    “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.”
    ‭‭I John‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    “For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.”
    ‭‭II Peter‬ ‭1:16-18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    “For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.”
    ‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-8‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
     
  2. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    The Gospel of John was written around 90-100 CE. So, not an eyewitness account.
    The Gospel of Peter was written around the mid-2nd Century. So, not an eyewitness.
    The Gospel of James was written in the 2nd Century. So, not an eyewitness account.
    1 Corinthians was written around 53-54 CE and includes claims to have seen a dead guy. Oh and this is the one where it's claimed that all these other people saw it too, but we don't get to read their accounts and for all we know, that's completely made up since we can't verify any of it. Anybody can say a bunch of people saw something but you know what that is? It's hearsay.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Christianity I find is Now spread voluntarily around the world even where spreading the gospel is banned.
    Jesus really really believed in what he taught by his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures.
    Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words. " it is written....." meaning written in the OT.
    Jesus did Not voluntarily die for something that was Not true.
    Jesus taught that Scripture is religious truth - John 17:17
    Sure, a lot of people don't believe in Jesus, but that does Not mean that what Jesus taught is Not true.
     
  4. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Yes, via missionary work, as I mentioned. It's still spread violently in some parts of the world.

    We can't know that. Our "information" is based on unverifiable stories in old books.

    People can, and do, die for things that aren't true. You realize, of course, that they may not necessarily realize it is a lie/untruth. So we can't just decide that if someone died believing in something, then that something must be true. We have to investigate much further than that.

    I already gave an example but here are some more:

    -People who thought COVID was a hoax, didn't take any precautions to protect themselves, then contracted COVID and died
    -People in the Heaven's Gate cult who committed mass suicide thinking they were going to hitch a ride on a spacecraft trailing behind the Hale-Bop comet (these people purchased alien abduction insurance before killing themselves)


    That's a claim from a story in an old book, that can't be verified, as far as I can tell.

    Doesn't mean it is either. In fact, mere belief gives us zero information about whether or not the claims are true.
     
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  5. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    Bump for nPeace!
     
  6. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    In short agency.

    we are given the power to choose. Satan et al rebelled.

    God’s love is off the charts powerful, however He can’t or won’t violate our ability to choose.
     
  7. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    Well, okay. But what I keep asking is why would creatures that were supposed to have loved God, failed in their love for God since love never fails? Therefore, this whole thing about Satan rebelling and then deceiving Eve to rebel in order to get Adam to rebel just doesn't make a lot of sense... Please explain. Because I've heard the generic explanation that you used a 1000 times before.
     
  8. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Love AKA charity that never fails is the pure perfect love of Christ
     
  9. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Okay it sounds like what is hard for you to get is the role of the fall in Gods plan. The following is the short version though it might not seem so.


    1 Cor 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


    1 Peter 1: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


    If there was no fall there would have been no need for the savior.

    I suppose some imagine God setting up eden plating a few special trees and breaking out into sheer panic when Adam and Eve eat the wrong fruit.


    I don’t see it that way.

    God who is perfect created a flawless world. In His infinite wisdom He set the stage for the fall. The fall brought both good and bad things into the world. As we see from Peter is was the plan.


    (Warning tacky analogy. )I buy my kids a nice lego set it is perfect and as long as they don’t open the box it will remain perfect. Also they can’t really experience what is means to play legos while it is in the box. I warn them that if they open the box they will have pain and things will be lost. (Gen 2:17).

    I know they will open the box and have the experiences that come from that. My jerk neighbor wants to ruin everything and he comes by and talks my kids into opening the box, but since I’m a smart guy I planned for this ( Peter above) I have the resources to correct all the problems they cause. I also also know that they can’t become master builders if they don’t lean via experience how things work.

    Gen 3: 22 “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”


    Mankind became imperfect and they also gained a Godlike knowledge they did not have.


    So in short The fall was as much a part of God’s plan as the creation and the sacrifice of the Savior.


    A related concept that is hinted at, but honestly not overly clear in the Bible is opposites (job 2:10, Eccl 3) this is taught a lot more outside the Bible. The core notion is that you can’t have good unless there is bad.


    In order for me to choose to follow Christ there must be another option. For all of us to learn and reach our potential we have to be in a challenging environment where we can choose.


    Coming back around the Love of God does not fail, but it does not force. All the help patience forgiveness etc that God offers will never force me. One can rebel as we see with Satan, Judas etc.
     
  10. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    I see. So what it sounds like you are saying is that God's real legacy was to allow evil, horror, murder, death, sickness, violence, corruption, war and blood shed in order to bring about peace, love, and happiness, and that we must understand that it was impossible for God to bring that about unless he allowed the opposite of that to exist first.

    Also, which verse in Ecclesiastes 3 were you referring to?

    But what I don't understand is why didn't Satan (when he was an angel) and Adam & Eve love God in the first place? And I could understand why Judas could fall short when it came to loving God since he was already handicapped by sin and imperfection in his makeup, however, I don't understand why Satan, and A&E didn't love God. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.
     
  11. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    I appreciate your Christian opinion on this, but did you read another Christian opinion concerning this in my OP showing that humans can also have and demonstrate agape love?

    emphasis is mine

    click here: "Love Never Fails" - True Bible Meaning of 1 Cor. 13:8 Explained (biblestudytools.com)
     
  12. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    So yes in order for me to choose peace there must be an option of war. Adam and Eve loved God. Satan no.
    Forms of love are complex and while English is great in many areas it stinks with love.
     
  13. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    Wow! That's deep. Also, that is exactly what F1fan has been saying.,, But, wow, that's deep! SMH :anguished: But why did A&E's love for God fail. And why didn't the angel who became Satan love God?

    Yeah, but that doesn't address what I was saying about the other Christian's opinion/view point of what agape love is. Because in essence, all that you are saying is that you're discarding the other Christian's point of view because you don't think that their understanding of the original language of (1 Corinthians 13:4-8 NIV - Love is patient, love is kind. It does - Bible Gateway) is sufficient. Also, if that's the case, then how does anyone understand the Bible, unless they are a scholar or is proficient in the ancient Greek and Aramaic languages? ...Are you?
     
  14. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is tough at times. I’m not an expert on the languages, but try to read from those that are.

    Satan sought to overthrow God. He failed. How could he not see the benefit of following God vs staging a rebellion? I really don’t think that has been well explained. There some reference to his being proud etc but I’ve not seen your specific question addressed.
     
  15. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    So, how would you know if the Christian website quote that I posted had the correct point of view or not? Or are you just disagreeing with it because it's different from your own point of view and understanding of those verses?

    Well, that's the $64,000 question.

    That's because there is no answer and there is no good explanation. But instead, the Satan story provides an explanation for human curiosity as to why there are so many things screwed up in life... A "scapegoat" story if you will. That's all it is because there's no good reason why Satan would not have loved and appreciated his creator and the life that his creator bestowed upon him.
     
  16. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    On the plus side God has restored His church to the Earth. There is a living prophet who can give us direction as needed. This is a definitive answer for the tough spots and challenges as to what did verse X mean.
     
  17. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    And how do you know that?

    I don't understand what you are saying.
     
  18. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    God offers confirmation of things. Its not too different than how I learned to use a telephone. I was told how it works, I tried it out and have great confidence is in the use of a telephone.

    Having prophets and such they can give answers to tough questions. We could debate all day long many questions in literature like "Why not fly the Eagle to Mordor and dive bomb the ring into Mt. Doom?"

    If we could ask Tolkin directly we could know his reasons.

    Prophets have the ability to get such information from God and speak authoritatively on an issue. (Almost like how the Supreme Court should operate if not for all the politicizing).

    Matters of doctrine are not just opinion X vs. Y .
     
  19. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    But you are comparing apples to oranges because learning about, understanding, and agreeing with a religion is vastly different from learning how to use a telephone.

    Well, actually they are. Because the Pentecostal down the street, or the Seventh Day Adventist around the corner, or the Jehovah Witness on the other side of town could have a vastly different interpretation of that so-called information from God, where one Christian denomination would call the other Chirstian denomination a cult or a false Christian religion.
     
  20. Truth in love

    Truth in love Well-Known Member

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    Things related to God can be a bit more complex, but the core concepts are the same. We hear of something, we try it out, see that it works and we have more knowledge.

    Sadly there is a lot of disagreement. There are people selling snake oil of many types. This does not mean there are no real medicines.
    One does have to learn for themselves. God does answer prayers. Not always in the most obvious was or on our wished for time table.

    I’m trying to grow some corn in my back yard. It will take months for it to be ready, but in just a few weeks I can see that things are growing.
     
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