Love and Rebellion

[ElishaElijah]

Sure, believers need to use faith because Christian concepts are too fantastic and absurd to conclude via reason. Christians adopt an irrational framework of belief and apply these concepts to life

What concepts are you talking about exactly?

 

[F1fan]

What do you mean it’s not factual?

The religious claims you are making are not based on facts. The religious dogma you follow is not based on facts.

It certainly is, how can you say my relationship with God and what He has done in my life isn’t factual?

1., this wasn't the specific claim I was referring to. 2., Gods aren't known to exist. Religious people do adopt concepts of God in social experiences that they then apply in life and ritual and use this imagery as if it is real. This is a type of mimicry that humans evolved to do as a social behavior that helps them form belonging and trust in community. It's a fact religious people behave this way. Its not a fact that there many versions of God exist outside of their imaginations.

You can say that, you can disbelieve me but as surely as I tell you I went on a service call and fixed someone’s AC unit is a fact, you can say you do t believe me, I could provide a receipt or could say my computer lost all the information, it still is fact whether provable to you or not.

Only in the sense that a person's illusions and fantasies are real to them. They are not real objectively.

Just like Jesus Christ rising from the dead is a fact, people saw Him after He was crucified, they wrote their testimonies, the grave is empty, believers and historians wrote about Him, archeological evidence as well. You can say you don’t believe but you cannot produce any evidence contrary because no body was in the tomb.

It's a fact this element is part of the Jesus myth. Objectively not only isn't this a fact but it is contrary to what we know of reality.

If you said Jesus ate a ham sandwich before he was executed, that is plausible and it could be accepted as possible. But supernatural claims? No way. You need extraordinary evidence, and citing the Bible is not good enough.

 

[F1fan]

What concepts are you talking about exactly?

Well the whole Jesus myth. That he was impregnated by God, to a virgin. Not believable. That he was born to be a sacrifice to God for the sins of man? Absurd, God could just do it without all this drama. That Jesus was executed to pay the sins of man? Stupid, because God created the circumstances for sin in the first place, and how God needs to fit it, and by killing his son? That Jesus died, but came back to life but somehow the debt of sin was paid off? If you kill something as a sacrifice it has to stay dead, that's how it works. So what's the deal, is salvation reneged? You believers think all this is real? It's a catastrophe.

None of this makes any sense literally. None of it is factual.

If Christians interpreted these stories symbolically, it could all work and as effective path. Literally? It just confuses duped believers.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Well the whole Jesus myth. That he was impregnated by God, to a virgin. Not believable. That he was born to be a sacrifice to God for the sins of man? Absurd, God could just do it without all this drama. That Jesus was executed to pay the sins of man? Stupid, because God created the circumstances for sin in the first place, and how God needs to fit it, and by killing his son? That Jesus died, but came back to life but somehow the debt of sin was paid off? If you kill something as a sacrifice it has to stay dead, that's how it works. So what's the deal, is salvation reneged? You believers think all this is real? It's a catastrophe.

None of this makes any sense literally. None of it is factual.

If Christians interpreted these stories symbolically, it could all work and as effective path. Literally? It just confuses duped believers.

Well the way God did this in Jesus Christ makes perfect sense to me in light of the Garden, the temptation and fall of man, our lack of trust in God, how Satan was able to temp Eve and us into believing God was holding out on us. What God did in Christ made a total mockery of Satan, made a spectacle for all to see. Then to top it all off made all who believe, his children and heirs.

 

[David Davidovich]

Just a couple thoughts...

In Genesis, referring to creation, including the first humans, it does not say they were “perfect”, but states...

Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good... (Genesis 1:31)

But wouldn't it be implicit from other scriptures that since everything that God does and creates is perfect, then if God declared that something that he made was "very good," then that would mean that what he created was perfect and without any flaws? click here: 41 Bible verses about God, Perfection Of (knowing-jesus.com)

Deuteronomy 32:4

“The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He
​

The fact is that only God is a perfect Being, so any created beings are less than God and therefore not perfect.

Not according to the scripture that are found in the link to the article that I posted above. Also, that's comparable to saying that since God has emotions and intelligence, then all his created beings are less than intelligent or less than emotional because God has those attributes.

Less than perfect beings with freedom to choose have the ability to choose wrongly, make mistakes, or as the scriptures say-sin.

I appreciate that you have your own interpretation on the matter, however, that is merely your interpretation because there are other Christians who interpret that differently than you do.

Also, the passage you referenced about love never failing was written by Paul to believers who had trusted Jesus Christ as their Savior, been born anew, and risen to new life in Christ. Christ already has the victory over sin and death on behalf of believers.

So are you saying that the principle that love never fails can't be applied to all of God's creatures?

Adam and Eve made their wrong choice and failed in their love for God before and without the in dwelling presence of Christ as their Savior.

I see. However, what I would like is know is why did Adam and Eve's love for God fail?

I think the most important point is that the Creator wanted His creatures to be endowed with the freedom to choose because a real relationship based on love requires free choice.

But what I would like to know is why didn't Adam and Eve have a real relationship with God? Because if they did have a real realtionship with God, then how could they have not chose him?

God is Love. We were created solely for an eternal loving relationship with our Creator, yet we each must willingly choose.

I see. But that almost sounds as if you are implying that God needed to create a situation where A&E had to choose. Because if God did not create the tree of good and evil ultimatum/situation, then the issue of being able to "willingly choose" would not have ever existed... Right?

 

[InChrist]

But wouldn't it be implicit from other scriptures that since everything that God does and creates is perfect, then if God declared that something that he made was "very good," then that would mean that what he created was perfect and without any flaws? click here: 41 Bible verses about God, Perfection Of (knowing-jesus.com)

Deuteronomy 32:4

“The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He
​

Not according to the scripture that are found in the link to the article that I posted above. Also, that's comparable to saying that since God has emotions and intelligence, then all his created beings are less than intelligent or less than emotional because God has those attributes.



I appreciate that you have your own interpretation on the matter, however, that is merely your interpretation because there are other Christians who interpret that differently than you do.



So are you saying that the principle that love never fails can't be applied to all of God's creatures?



I see. However, what I would like is know is why did Adam and Eve's love for God fail?



But what I would like to know is why didn't Adam and Eve have a real relationship with God? Because if they did have a real realtionship with God, then how could they have not chose him?



I see. But that almost sounds as if you are implying that God needed to create a situation where A&E had to choose. Because if God did not create the tree of good and evil ultimatum/situation, then the issue of being able to "willingly choose" would not have ever existed... Right?

I probably am implying that God needed to or certainly chose to provide the situation for A&E to have the ideal opportunity to willingly choose to trust His love or not. The scriptures say A&E enjoyed daily fellowship with God. They knew God’s presence and knew they were loved and cared for by God. God provided them with a beautiful garden environment and satisfying, productive activity there. God gave them one clear instruction and restriction, yet they chose to disregard it, as well as all of God’s love, care and provision and instead believe the lie of the serpent and trust their own judgment on the matter, rather than God.

Yes, the scriptures you mentioned and linked to all reference God’s perfection. The scriptures also clear state in reference to humans, that
...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

So if God is perfect, as the scriptures indicate, as well as being omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, don’t you think He knew the way He designed humans, their environment and opportunity to respond to Him and His love was the very best way to do so?

In answer to your question about why did A&E fail to love God or why didn’t they choose to love and trust Him? I think it was because, although they knew God and Who He is, they put “self” first. They exalted themselves; their wisdom and ability above God...just as Lucifer had done.

 

[David Davidovich]

I probably am implying that God needed to or certainly chose to provide the situation for A&E to have the ideal opportunity to willingly choose to trust His love or not.

Interesting... And if that is true, then if God created the situation to test whether or not A&E would willingly choose to trust God or not, then it can be said with certainty that humanity would not be in the situation that we're in today.

The scriptures say A&E enjoyed daily fellowship with God. They knew God’s presence and knew they were loved and cared for by God. God provided them with a beautiful garden environment and satisfying, productive activity there. God gave them one clear instruction and restriction, yet they chose to disregard it, as well as all of God’s love, care and provision and instead believe the lie of the serpent and trust their own judgment on the matter, rather than God.

Well, then that demonstrated the point that I am arguing, which is that A&E had it all, therefore, there was no reason why they should not have loved God whole heartedly. Therefore, they either did love God whole heartedly or they never did love and appreciate God whole heartedly, regardless of everything that he did for them.

Yes, the scriptures you mentioned and linked to all reference God’s perfection. The scriptures also clear state in reference to humans, that
...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

I don't know if you are being disingenuous, because just about all Christian denominations interprets the New Testament as explaining that sin came into the world only because of Adam's sin. Just like it explains that two chapters over at: Romans 5:12-17 NIV - Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ - Bible Gateway.

So if God is perfect, as the scriptures indicate, as well as being omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, don’t you think He knew the way He designed humans, their environment and opportunity to respond to Him and His love was the very best way to do so?

Well, that kind of defeats your argument because you are saying that all along God knew what was going to happen in Eden as a result of the situation that he created for A&E in order for them to respond to his love... Also, to answer your question, I would think that an omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God would have found a better way to proceed with his creation, which would have avoided the horror that occurred as a result of his decisions.

In answer to your question about why did A&E fail to love God or why didn’t they choose to love and trust Him? I think it was because, although they knew God and Who He is, they put “self” first. They exalted themselves; their wisdom and ability above God...just as Lucifer had done.

Then that would mean that there was a flaw in the way that God created both A&E. Also, that mean would that there was a flaw in the way that God created "Lucifer" too.

 

[InChrist]

Interesting... And if that is true, then if God created the situation to test whether or not A&E would willingly choose to trust God or not, then it can be said with certainty that humanity would not be in the situation that we're in today.



Well, then that demonstrated the point that I am arguing, which is that A&E had it all, therefore, there was no reason why they should not have loved God whole heartedly. Therefore, they either did love God whole heartedly or they never did love and appreciate God whole heartedly, regardless of everything that he did for them.



I don't know if you are being disingenuous, because just about all Christian denominations interprets the New Testament as explaining that sin came into the world only because of Adam's sin. Just like it explains that two chapters over at: Romans 5:12-17 NIV - Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ - Bible Gateway.



Well, that kind of defeats your argument because you are saying that all along God knew what was going to happen in Eden as a result of the situation that he created for A&E in order for them to respond to his love... Also, to answer your question, I would think that an omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God would have found a better way to proceed with his creation, which would have avoided the horror that occurred as a result of his decisions.



Then that would mean that there was a flaw in the way that God created both A&E. Also, that mean would that there was a flaw in the way that God created "Lucifer" too.

It does not mean there was a flaw, unless you think freedom is a flaw. Apparently, God places a high value on endowing His creating beings with freedom.
I truly do not understand how it is that you, a finite being, presume to think God, an infinite Being, would have or should have found a better way.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So, why is that? Why was Jesus able to choose a godly self-sacrificing love, but Adam wasn't? What made them different in that regards?
But why would a perfect person make that sort of dangerous decision? Also, I had thought that you said somewhere that what really motivated Adam was his desire not to want to live without his wife. Because that sounds like a far cry from Adam wanting to take the Law out of God's hand and putting the Law into his own hands.
And I could be wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that from the start, God needed to prove the success or failure of People Rule.

No, not success or failure but loyalty or show loyal love for God as their Life Giver (aka Father)
By obedience Adam and Eve would have shown appreciation to their God by obeying Him.
So, yes Adam could have chosen self-sacrificing love for God over Eve.
Yes, Adam's desire, his deliberate choice, was then to put Eve first over his God.
Adam's choice was a deliberate man-made choice and Not a theocratic choice.
Eve was deceived but Adam was Not deceived.
So, to me it was Adam who needed to prove the success of People Rule, or not.
God already gave the one law of Eden with its consequence if the law was broken.

 

[David Davidovich]

It does not mean there was a flaw, unless you think freedom is a flaw. Apparently, God places a high value on endowing His creating beings with freedom.

But I was going by how you explained things when you said:

So if God is perfect, as the scriptures indicate, as well as being omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, don’t you think He knew the way He designed humans, their environment and opportunity to respond to Him and His love was the very best way to do so?​

Because I don't understand why A&E couldn't respond to God's love by just responding to it? Because why would any parent present a life or death ultimatum to any of their children as an opportunity to respond to their parents' love? That seems sadistic to me.

I truly do not understand how it is that you, a finite being, presume to think God, an infinite Being, would have or should have found a better way.

Well, I guess you haven't figured out by now that I don't share the same beliefs as you do.

 

[David Davidovich]

No, not success or failure but loyalty or show loyal love for God as their Life Giver (aka Father)

So, God had to take 6000 years (according to fundamentalists' beliefs) to prove the loyalty of people?

By obedience Adam and Eve would have shown appreciation to their God by obeying Him.
So, yes Adam could have chosen self-sacrificing love for God over Eve.
Yes, Adam's desire, his deliberate choice, was then to put Eve first over his God.

But the way that you're making it sound as if it was an easy choice for Adam to make. But how could that have been if Adam loved God in the first place?

Adam's choice was a deliberate man-made choice and Not a theocratic choice.
Eve was deceived but Adam was Not deceived.

You, other Christians, and the Bible narrative make it seem like it was such an easy choice for Eve. But how could that have been if Eve loved God in the first place?

So, to me it was Adam who needed to prove the success of People Rule, or not.

But that's not how you explained it previously. You had said that Adam put Eve first over his God. However, that's not the same thing as Adam needing to prove the success of People Rule or not.

God already gave the one law of Eden with its consequence if the law was broken.

But I can say with a certainty that things would have turned out better for the universe if God had not have given that one law of Eden. Because Satan would have never thought of a way to tempt Eve, and A&E would not have had a way to disobey God.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Do you understand what faith is and can you explain these verses as it applies to you or anyone? This is the point where every human being finds themselves. I don’t believe you can prove or disprove this, you either believe it or not. If you don’t believe this you won’t seek God and find Him, if you do then you will seek God, find Him and then have your proof because He is the reward, He reveals Himself to you at that point. That’s how you get your proof.

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:1, 3, 6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

"Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have good evidence."
-Matt Dillahunty

Since anything can be believed on faith, it's not a pathway to truth.
I'm interested in believing true things and not believing false things, so I'm gonna need more than just "faith."

 

[SkepticThinker]

It’s not irrational and by your comments you didn’t understand. You are one of those people who don’t have faith so obviously you won’t seek God or find Him.

It is irrational, in light of the rules of logic.

My parents did promote prayer and encouraged us to trust God but we really were more into sports as a family. I wasn’t ever a Bible reading person because I had no real desire or understanding of it. I always did believe in God though, I always felt I had some kind of relationship even though I was drinking, partying and living a promiscuous lifestyle till I ended up a bankrupt person isolated from everyone. If I didn’t believe God was real had faith, I would’ve never prayed to Him for help in the first place. Now the all knowing person that you seem to believe you are has all the answers to how when I did cry out to God it must’ve been some super power I all of the sudden had within myself to deliver myself and change me. This is quite funny though. Because after that and continuing to seek God I was then saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and had different desires and could see life a lot differently. I do understand the Scriptures, I am free, I do have Eternal life, I am living the abundant life Jesus promised and this is all because of Jesus Christ. Like I said this is proof for me because it’s my life, I’m living it. But for you it’s not anything. For you to say my experience is anything other than what I told you, you will have to come up with your own evidence that what I say is false. Maybe do some interviews with my family or ask God yourself if what I say is true or not, maybe do some experiments.

It sounds like you started with faith, and wanted to believe, and so you did.

I don't find faith to be a pathway to truth, given that anything can be believed on faith.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Believers live by the Word of God and that does take faith. For instance when God says that He is not mocked, whatever a man sows he will reap.
We have found this to be true and I learned early on to sow good seed, physically in the garden and helping people with needs, God has continued to provide for our family even when I was at a poverty level income, we always gave. God always provided. So to say faith is unreliable and uncertain shows a lack of understanding of what faith is. Faith is trusting that God will do what He said. Well, you won’t know unless you trust what He said.

You say:Yes, faith is unreliable and uncertain.

Depends on what or who you place your trust/faith in. Everyone lives by faith, you do, is your faith uncertain, unreliable? Is whatever you trust in ever changing? What are you placing your trust in?

No, everyone doesn't live by faith, not the way you describe it.
That's just something I see religious-minded people trying to assert, because well, they're coming from a place of faith and I guess you have to pull everyone else down to the same level?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well, did God say we weren’t going to die? Get sick? He didn’t but said this:

“Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.””
‭‭John‬ ‭16:32-33‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The definition of faith is “trusting what God said and acting on that”. A lot of faith talk is more presumption. I heard people say things like I have faith for this or that and I ask them, did God tell you that?
There are concrete promises that God has made to me in His Word especially concerning eternal life. How do I know? Because He gave me the engagement ring of His Spirit as a guarantee. This isn’t something a person can get on their own merit or wishful thinking. It doesn’t take faith to believe I have the Holy Spirit because He lives in me, I know that, it does take faith to believe that I will live with God for eternity because I haven’t obtained that yet. He also said He would never leave or forsake us, so even in tragedy He will be with me.

So all those starving children all around the world whose parents are exercising their faith and praying to God pleading for their children's lives right at this very moment, God is ignoring them, but helped you kick your drug habit and get you back on your feet? Do you not realize how arrogant that sounds?

 

[SkepticThinker]

What do you mean it’s not factual? It certainly is, how can you say my relationship with God and what He has done in my life isn’t factual? You can say that, you can disbelieve me but as surely as I tell you I went on a service call and fixed someone’s AC unit is a fact, you can say you do t believe me, I could provide a receipt or could say my computer lost all the information, it still is fact whether provable to you or not.
Just like Jesus Christ rising from the dead is a fact, people saw Him after He was crucified, they wrote their testimonies, the grave is empty, believers and historians wrote about Him, archeological evidence as well. You can say you don’t believe but you cannot produce any evidence contrary because no body was in the tomb.

What's factual here is that you did something to change your life. What is not factual is that it's the result of something a God did.
The obvious answer is that you helped yourself.

Jesus Christ "rising from the dead" is not a fact. No matter how many times you assert it. That's a story in a book. You're the one who needs to present evidence that the story in the book is true.

 

[F1fan]

No, everyone doesn't live by faith, not the way you describe it.
That's just something I see religious-minded people trying to assert, because well, they're coming from a place of faith and I guess you have to pull everyone else down to the same level?

Indeed. The funny thing is theists are in essence admitting faith is unreliable, but that's OK because everyone uses faith. It doesn't help them argue for the truth they claim they have via faith.

We can see from what theists end up believing via faith that is is vastly less rational than the type of faith where someone trusts a car working, or a person being reliable, or a spouse not cheating, etc. Faith that unicorns or God exists is at point zero on the scale of how reliable faith can be. At least faith in Bob's beating his drug addiction has some chance of actually being true.

 

[ElishaElijah]

What's factual here is that you did something to change your life. What is not factual is that it's the result of something a God did.
The obvious answer is that you helped yourself.

Jesus Christ "rising from the dead" is not a fact. No matter how many times you assert it. That's a story in a book. You're the one who needs to present evidence that the story in the book is true.

Both are facts no matter how much you want to spin that. Jesus rising from the dead was a fact 2000 years ago and still a fact today.
I didn’t have the ability to change myself, God does and did, facts.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Indeed. The funny thing is theists are in essence admitting faith is unreliable, b

Your statement is false because God speaks to a person, the person hears God and at that point you can either have faith/trust that God will do what He promised or have no faith/trust and not believe Him. Very reliable because God has the ability to perform what He said and faithful to do what He promised.
What is unreliable is faith in yourself or other things that aren’t eternal.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Both are facts no matter how much you want to spin that. Jesus rising from the dead was a fact 2000 years ago and still a fact today.
I didn’t have the ability to change myself, God does and did, facts.

They just aren't facts. I'm sorry if you aren't aware of what a fact is.
There is no evidence of anyone ever being resurrected from the dead. You also can't demonstrate that the person who changed your life was anyone other than yourself.
Those are beliefs, not facts. You're entitled to your own beliefs, but not your own facts.