David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
So, then are you saying that A&E really didn't start out perfect?
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Love and Rebellion
- Thread starter David Davidovich
- Start date
So, then are you saying that A&E really didn't start out perfect?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
I'm saying that they were not gods. Perfect humans perhaps but not with perfect knowledge.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
I don't know if you saw the scriptural citations that I used in the OP, but according to those scriptures, love never fails, and there's not anything in all creation that will be able to separate [God's children] from the love of God.
Love's not a decision according to the verses that I cited in the OP.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
Then you're making the case that F1fan is arguing.
ElishaElijah
Return
How about you, do you have that total freedom and wisdom?
None of us do. But then I don't have eternal life living in paradise created by a competent God. And neither do Adam and Eve because their God was incompetent, or corrupt.
There's no such thing as free will. Don't tell me you think there is.
Here is a great explanation of the recent studies, but you have to read down the text to get to these parts:
There’s No Such Thing as Free Will
My ideas are criticisms of the typical Christian interpretation of the A&E story. I'm doing a critical and objective analysis of the story at face value, and without certain assumptions Christians make. Feel free to point out any errors I'm making. You haven't yet, so I take it you can see I'm correct?
Exactly.
This whole thing reminds me of the final scene in a Few Good Men, where Jessop is trapped because he asserts nothing happens on the base without his say so because he demands discipline, yet two soldiers did something his against orders. So he can't have it both ways. The soldiers were being blamed for the murder. In the end Jessop admits he did order the attack because, he IS in charge.
So is God in charge of Eden or is it a free for all where anything goes? Oh wait, there's a rule. So, if you're in charge you'd better make sure everyone can follow the rule.
ElishaElijah
Return
Oh but we do have eternal life and so do all those who have been born again. I believe Adam and Eve have eternal life as well.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
So, then are you saying that you have total freedom and wisdom?
But why do Christians have different beliefs about this? And please don't tell me that this point doesn't matter because the only thing that really matters when it comes to being a Christian is whether or not you have faith in Jesus.
ElishaElijah
Return
I said I have Eternal Life, the freedom I have is in Christ and living the abundant life that He promised.
“Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.”
John 8:34-36 NKJV
ElishaElijah
Return
Do you really want the answer to this, is this your quandary?
What specifically are the different views, I haven’t really explored this, the fellowships I’ve been part of we’ve all agreed.
This is Christian dogma, not a fact.
If you think it is a fact, then provide the evidence that doesn't require a bunch of implausible assumptions first.
Note: no one is 2000 years has been able to do this, so be the first.
ElishaElijah
Return
Well, Jesus Christ rose from the dead, his tomb empty, that’s one fact.
All people born of the Spirit since then,
Including myself have the Holy Spirit who is the down payment of eternal life to come, this is proof for me as well as all who have been born again.
But this isn’t going to be proof for you because you aren’t born again, when and if you are then you will understand and have your own proof.
I thought the same thing as you did until I was born again then everything was clear to me.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
That is not a fact. It's a claim. It's Christian dogma.
More claims. "All people born of the Spirit since then, including myself have the Holy Spirit who is the down payment ... " That's not evidence. That's not proof. That's a claim.
It's a fact it is part of the Gospel stories, it isn't an objective fact.
This is just Christian dogma that requires a person make a bunch of religious assumptions FIRST. These assumptions are not supported by fact or reality. So thinkers reject your claim.
See the problem here, you are suggesting a person can only conclude a truth AFTYER they make an unwarranted and implausible assumption. That isn't reasoning. By using your approach Muslims and Hindus can assume they have the truth and you are wrong. That's why your approach fails.
Once you make up your mind dogma is true you will tell yourself you are correct. That's called self-deception.
ElishaElijah
Return
It is a fact that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and I explained being born again is proof and a fact for the person. And are you claiming to be born of the Holy Spirit? If so there is a test for that because some people were lying or deceived in the Scriptures.
ElishaElijah
Return
It is a fact in History and not just among believers, but unbelievers as well.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
You've just repeated the same exact claims again.
ElishaElijah
Return
Obviously you didn’t understand otherwise I wouldn’t repeat it.You've just repeated the same exact claims again.
Now you claimed to be born of the Holy Spirit, how so?