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Featured Love and Rebellion

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by David Davidovich, Apr 18, 2022.

  1. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    This is a quote #115 from the Why Would Noah's Flood Have Been the Best Way for God to Cleanse the Earth? thread by F1fan that I somewhat agreed with but had a different viewpoint with some of his thoughts:

    But I would like to build on those ideas with a new thread.

    So, what I would like to know is: How could there actually be rebellion against God in the beginning when all his creatures were perfect in mind, body (energy body or physical body), intellect, emotions and everything? And keep in mind that according to scripture, everything that God makes and does is 100% perfect.

    click here: 41 Bible verses about God, Perfection Of (knowing-jesus.com)

    Also, I know that Bible believers explain this by saying that it was because of freedom of choice along with pride and selfish desire with Satan, and that with Adam and Eve, Adam loved Eve more than he loved God, but Eve was tricked and became the victim of her own selfish longings. However, in this thread, I would like to view things from two Bible verses: Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 13:8 - New International Version and Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:38-39 - New International Version.

    And to get into this, I would like to make a quote from a religious article that discusses those scriptures:

    The statement “love never fails” comes from best-known chapter in the Bible on love, 1 Corinthians 13. Among its many quoted phrases is a portion of verse 8, “Love never fails.”​

    Love never fails, and the English Standard Version adds to our understanding of these words, translating them as “Love never ends.” The next sentence contrasts love with other spiritual gifts: “But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.” Prophecies, tongues, and knowledge are all temporary. Not so with love. Because love is a basic attribute of God (1 John 4:8) and because God is eternal, love will also be eternal. Love will never fail.​

    Scripture reveals God’s eternal love for us, a love that never fails. God chose us (John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4-5), died for us (Romans 5:8), and will never leave us (Hebrews 13:5). In fact, nothing at all can separate us from God’s eternal love: “I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38–39).

    The Greek word translated “fails” in the NIV is related to a verb meaning “to fall.” By saying, “Love never fails,” the Bible means that God’s type of love will not fall or falter. It is constant forever. As God says in Jeremiah 31:3, “I have loved you with an everlasting love.”​

    click here: What does it mean that love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8)? | GotQuestions.org

    However, from the context of those verses, it can be seen that it's not only God's love for his creatures, but it's also love by his creatures. And as can be seen from this article:

    In chapter 13, Paul coaches his readers to reach for a new kind of love for each other, based on what God does for us. But we’re unable to create it in our own strength. Human love will always fail, because we are flawed, sinful people.

    The closest we can come to God’s love is “agape,” which is defined as a selfless devotion to the good of others. And again, this is not something we can sustain, but must rely on God for. He will shape our hearts to love this way, and He will renew the desire when it starts to falter.​

    What This Kind of Love Looks Like

    Paul writes almost poetically of agape-type love in verses 4-7: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

    This kind of love leaves an imprint on the world around us. We might label works motivated by agape today as “serving the community” or “missions.” But these moments can happen anywhere on any day. They have to do with provision, caring, welcoming, blessing, encouraging and equipping others.

    This type of love is active, and requires our time and energy. It calls us to look for needs around us, then to commit to doing what we can to make a difference. It demands creativity, determination and dedication. Most of all, our hearts need to be aligned with God’s heart.​

    click here: "Love Never Fails" - True Bible Meaning of 1 Cor. 13:8 Explained (biblestudytools.com)

    Therefore, it doesn't make sense to me how love failed with some of God's perfect creatures and they decided to rebel against him, even though, the Bible states the principle that love never fails. Therefore, it shouldn't have failed with them either.

    Your thoughts?


     
    #1 David Davidovich, Apr 18, 2022
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2022
  2. F1fan

    F1fan Veteran Member

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    There is no way to avoid the Fall in Eden being on God completely. None of the excuses work. The free will argument is the most common, but it fails because people who follow rules and live lives without getting in trouble also have free will, they just make better choices in life. Adam and Eve made foolish choices, and even though bad choices are also free will, it was God who made these beings, and it was God who set rules for them to follow, and it was god who sent an agent to tempt them. All God had to do was made A&E able to freely choose the wise thing and obey God. But God didn't do this. God created them exactly the way intended, and that was to fail.

    If anyone disagrees, are they saying God couldn't create obedient people? And let's be clear, they didn't disobey due to their own thinking, they were tempted by God's agent. They didn't know any better. they didn't know the full depth of the consequences. But God did. Is this love?

    Many believers say the reason children can be born with faulty genes that cause cancer is due to the Fall of man via A&E. Despite the best efforts of doctors many children die. This is the world God created. God created a perfect world with perfect people that somehow failed. And it's the fault of the perfect humans? No. The creator designed the universe exactly as it intended, and that includes all the children, and adults, who develop cancer. Is this love?

    Assuming this God exists as some Christians believe, is there a reason to worship this God? I suggest there is a reason to rebel, and that means to not worship evil. I suggest don't even give this God the satisfaction of believing it exists. What's it going to do, cause earthquakes? Tornados, hurricanes? Maybe new bacteria and virus that will kill millions? Well, too late even for the believers. Is this love?

    Are we fallible mortals to carry the burden of virtue and love a God that has never loved humanity? Of course not. But we can help our fellow human beings and show Good how it is done.
     
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  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Will isn't something an all knowing God would force, nor would God create the perfect will unless such creatures were born of such Spirit.

    From what I've read A&E knew what God told them, and what God commanded of them. So they knew enough to make the right decisions. The serpent was allowed to tempt them so that A&E would freely choose between good and evil before ever eating the fruit. A&E could have rejected the serpent and ate from the Tree of Life, but that's not what was in their hearts.

    Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not their first sin. Their first sin was letting the serpent tempt them. God tested them as to what was in their hearts to do.

    A&E were created to freely become whatsoever they wished to become. Had their hearts been with God they would have never ate from the one they did.

    God was in their midst and did everything to let them choose eternal life. They had first hand knowledge of God, and first hand knowledge of the serpent. God clearly wanted their love and trust, and gave them enough to chew on to make a correct heart choice. God wanted them to do what was in their hearts first and foremost.

    So I don't think the story failed. The moral failures of the Bible come later, such as Numbers 31: 17-18.

    All the trees of the garden but one were all the wonders of life and good things they should have rather desired then knowledge of good and evil. All God did was let them have their desires of their heart.
     
  4. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    I've never heard that before that it was God who sent an agent to temp them. Could you show me a scripture that says that since this thread is in the Biblical Debates forum?

    Very good point.

    But they were supposed to have been created perfect, therefore, they would have had the mental faculties to know better.

    I'm not sure that I agree with you on that point, but that would be sad if that was the case.

    I'm confused because on one hand it sounds like you don't believe in God, but then OTOH, you sound like you do believe in God and the Bible story of God, but that people should rebel against that God because he is really evil. :confused:
     
  5. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    Could you elaborate on what you mean by: "nor would God create the perfect will unless such creatures were born of such Spirit"?

    I agree with that interpretation.

    But what you're describing is entrapment. Also, just to broaden on what you said, do you have any speculation on what may have happened if A&E would have obeyed God? Would Satan still have been punished and do you have any speculation on how he would have been punished?

    But why wouldn't that have been in the hearts of people who were created perfectly without flaw?

    I agree that A&E's first sin was being tempted, however, why would God want to know what was in their hearts?

    But why weren't their hearts with God? That's what I would like to understand.

    But from what you're saying, it sounds as if God had to actually test them in order to see (who they really were?) or what was really in their hearts if they had to make a choice between him and the serpent. Because if he didn't, then there was no other way that he could find out... right? :confused:

    But I don't think that anyone said that the story failed. It basically is what it is.

    But once again, the way that this story is written, it sounds like there was a need for God to test their love and loyalty because otherwise, he would not have known who they really were.
     
  6. F1fan

    F1fan Veteran Member

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    The issue isn't will at all, it's about having the wisdom and mental faculties to obey the rules because it's in your best interest to do that. If a perfect God really intended to make beings that knew well enough to obey rules, why didn't God pull it off?

    But they didn't. If you were correct they would have known better than to disobey.

    How did the Serpent come to exist? How was the Serpent allowed into the Garden?

    If the true intention of God was to create obedient people why is God working against them?

    And who created the heart of A&E? Why wasn't discipline and obedience and wisdom instilled if they were to be tempted by the Serpent? God knew what it was doing. It created A&E poorly prepared for temptation, and God sent an assassin.

    Are you suggesting you don't think a perfect God would know what it put in the hearts of beings it created?

    Sounds like an unforced error by God. God creates people that will need to obey rules. God sets rules. God tests the people with temptation, and the test failed. There are many people alive today that follow the rules of society, so why couldn't God create people like that?

    Let's say you design airplanes, and you draw up your first design and the prototype is built. The plane is tested and it crashes. It was not a manufacturing error as all stages of construction was inspected by you. A rival designs a plane and it flies well, it's stable and performs. How can you blame the plane for the failure, you designed and built it? Your rival proves planes can be designed to function as intended, but yours fails. Can you admit the possibility of design error? The alternative is you designed it to crash.

    This statement only works if God threw dice when creating A&E. Remember, God CREATED the hearts. If God really wanted obedience, why didn't God instill discipline and/or devotion in these hearts?

    Yet they failed. Is that the best God can do? Is allowing the Serpent to tempt them really help? If you have an alcohol problem is the best help putting a bottle of booze in from of you to see if you drink? If God really wanted to support A&E it wouldn't have tempted them.

    Just not enough to put adequate love and trust in their hearts, and especially not enough to endure temptation. God created them inadequate to resist temptation, and then put temptation in their path.

    I wonder if they would have not disobeyed had the Serpent not tempted them. Why did God allow that? Is that love and trust?

    Knowledge of good and evil is what gives us the wisdom to make good choices. A&E didn't have wisdom until after. They needed it before. Design error?
     
    #6 F1fan, Apr 19, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2022
  7. F1fan

    F1fan Veteran Member

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    It's not in scripture. But since there was nothing until God created everything, and one of those things was the Serpent, and God allowed the Serpent into the Garden, and then let it tempt A&E, don't you think something is fishy?

    If you are building your dream home, and you want to live there the rest of your life with little stress, do you dump a box of termites on the wood as the framing is being done? No, you do everything you can to eliminate future problems. If you are a God and you want to create obedient people, they are going to BE obedient. You don't sabotage your efforts.

    Yet they failed. So........ if God is perfect and can't make mistakes, it was deliberate sabotage. They were designed to fail. What other option is there?

    Of course I'm wrong, but I'm using Christian beliefs against them. If God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes, then all that exists today is exactly what a perfect God intended. The deception is that the God created perfect people and they failed. God created flawed people that fallen people blame themselves for. That's an abusive relationship, so being an atheist is a wise thing to do. Being a Christian is following the failed model of A&E. Irony.

    I'm a total atheist. But the funny thing is how some Christian beliefs actually can be used against them if assumed true for the sake of argument.
     
  8. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    To create someone perfect you must give them total freedom of will. They had the knowledge of God's presence, and also the serpent's so they had knowledge of good and evil first hand before they ate. Otherwise the story fails.

    They were free to do whatsoever was in their hearts to do. All the other trees were there as well. God commanded them before he went for a walk.

    God has to allow total freedom of will, and that includes not knowing what A&E would do in their hearts. There is no way to predict their hearts because they were given total freedom. Once they chose evil then God cursed them with work, labor, and death.

    Eating from the knowledge of good and evil they became aware of what they chose in their hearts. They knew enough to trust God before that. It was all a test of heart, and not a test of knowledge or wisdom. Eating from the forbidden tree was redundant. I don't buy that they didn't know enough of what they were doing.

    Oh well, it's a story. There's not just one way of interpreting it.

    You are saying they needed perfect knowledge of good and evil to not be naive. Maybe they didn't like the garden set up, and decided to test God back. Or go with the story and consider A&E wanted to be as gods knowing good and evil.

    I'm saying the company of God, and the serpent was to experience good and evil first hand.

    So I think the best thing to do was see first about the tree of life. And if life ain't good enough, then choose the knowledge.

    The Garden test was necessary because God wanted their love and trust. God wanted their friendship and instead of that he got a direct challenge.

    I don't buy that God would want to be all knowing of every choice of heart of the creature's created before they chose it.
     
  9. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Adam and Eve were created differently. They were not born of righteousness. If they were born of righteousness then no test would be necessary. They were created with total free will. Having total free will they could accept or reject good or evil. To grant total free will God would have to give up on knowing their hearts til they made their own decisions. God knew all possibilities of all choices but did not know their choices in particular.

    The more I read the Bible the harder it becomes to make consistent sense of it. I don't think it meshes well with reality either.

    It's probably not a good idea to draw moral lessons from it. I can rationalize and try to justify the stories, but that's probably a bad idea as well.

    There's a way to read the story without it being entrapment.

    Why would God create total free will beings that could choose evil and rebellion? Anything less than total free will is not satisfactory. Ultimately you would have to take God's perspective. God wants true fellowship and true friendship.

    I really don't want to read the Bible assuming that God is perfectly good. I'd rather God prove it since I have no experience of God. And if the Bible claims to be perfectly good I take serious issues with that.

    I do not see that A&E were forced to make any choices. So it falls on them that they were guilty of being tempted by the serpent's words.

    God must have created a perfectly level field of play in making the Garden of Eden. Every freedom of life and choice was before them.

    So I guess people take issue with the idea that God could create a perfect hearted A&E. I don't think life works that way though. So God has to let them live and be totally free.

    Wouldn't it be nice if evil had no possibility in real life and that everyone would always make the right choices of heart. Evil is a senseless choice that has no justification.
     
  10. F1fan

    F1fan Veteran Member

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    If you give people total freedom then you'd better give them total wisdom. God didn't, and that is why the story fails.

    As I explained, God created their hearts and what is in them. If this was inadequate for them to be obedient to rules, then God is at fault.

    Right, God made them naive and unable to make wise decisions, so they failed due to God's failure to prepare them for the temptation. God's fault. Or God wanted them to fail. As you admit, A&E was only wise AFTER they ate the fruit.

    Which means it isn't truth. Some actually believe this story is true at face value. In day and age, can you believe it?

    Then they weren't perfect. Can't have it both ways. If your guess is correct, why did God create them to be dissatisfied? Don't you think Good knew what he was doing?

    So you're suggesting God didn't know what he was doing and had to experiment? You're making God sound very mortal and human.

    But you seem to be edging towards reality here because it is likely the fallible humans who wrote these stories did model the God after human thinking and faults. The story doesn't work literally, and I'll bet the writers didn't presume that they were writing a literal story. Why modern humans 3000 years after are interpreting it literally is one of many failures of religious influence.

    But God would know whether the beings it created could withstand temptation. You are suggesting God screwed up here. You're suggesting God underestimated how well prepared A&E were to resist temptation.

    Do you really think a perfect God would create beings that would fail?

    If God is perfect, then A&E failed exactly as they were designed to.
     
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  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find there is a BIG difference between the selfish distorted form of love described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 and the definition of Christ-like godly love defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.
    Adam chose self love, a selfish form of love.
    Whereas, Jesus chose a godly self-sacrificing love .
    By Adam selfishly choosing to break God's Law that was as if Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and putting the Law into his own hands. Adam set up People Rule as being superior to God Rule.
    Only the passing of time would prove the success or failure of People Rule.
    Mankind's long history now shows that it is Not God, but MAN has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury.
     
  12. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    Yes, something does seem fishy. Also, since God is supposed to be good and perfect and is supposed to know everything, then you would think that he would have detected Satan's first sin (i.e., the desire itself to deceive A&E before he actually deceived them).
     
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  13. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

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    No one does this 100 percent, though.
     
  14. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

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    You really don't understand free will.
    The only way your ideas work is if you presume God created a deterministic reality where he decides everything.
     
  15. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    So, the only conclusion that I can come to from that is that creatures/beings who are born of righteousness do not have total free will. Even though that doesn't make sense to me.

    Well, I must admit that that sounds reckless and dangerous to me.

    Well, I'm glad that you were willing to admit that.

    That's an interesting thing to admit. :confused:

    God's perspective? So, is God's perspective what we think or imagine it to be? Because I had thought that the way that Bible believers get God's perspective was by reading a book that becomes harder to make consistent sense of the more you read it. And a book that is not a good idea to draw moral lessons from. :confused:

    So how does God prove that he is perfectly good? Could you give me some examples?

    What do you mean by a "field to play in"? Because it sounds as it had always been God's intention to test them to see who they really were. Also, how could every freedom of life and choice be before them when they only had plants and animals before them?

    Once again, what you're describing sounds reckless and dangerous.

    Your last two sentences seem to contradict everything that you were saying.
     
  16. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    So, why is that? Why was Jesus able to choose a godly self-sacrificing love, but Adam wasn't? What made them different in that regards?

    But why would a perfect person make that sort of dangerous decision? Also, I had thought that you said somewhere that what really motivated Adam was his desire not to want to live without his wife. Because that sounds like a far cry from Adam wanting to take the Law out of God's hand and putting the Law into his own hands.

    And I could be wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that from the start, God needed to prove the success or failure of People Rule.
     
  17. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    But one would think that a person who was created perfectly would. Also, Jesus obeyed God 100 percent.
     
    #17 David Davidovich, Apr 20, 2022
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  18. David Davidovich

    David Davidovich Active Member

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    But what I don't understand is why did A&E's love for God fail? Or another question that I could ask is did A&E even have love for God?
     
  19. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

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    Because he is God and the only one capable of perfection.
     
  20. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

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    Because they had the option to listen to another voice. If they didn't have that option, they would have been slaves, not lovers of God.
    I don't know if they knew everything about what love is....we don't know how much God had taught them. Love isn't a feeling... it's a decision, BTW.
    So they could make a decision contrary to love also.
     
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