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Lot, One of the Bible's bad Guys

Skwim

Veteran Member

In describing Lot, Wikipedia says "Christians revere Lot as a righteous man of God."
Project Gutenberg says, "Despite Lot's flaws, Christians view him as a righteous man."
source

However, after reading the story of his stay in Sodom I can't figure out why. Particularly because of what he does to his daughters.


GENESIS 19: 1-11
Lot’s Visitors

1
That evening the two angels came to the city of Sodom. Lot was sitting near the city gates and saw them. He got up and went to them. He bowed to show respect and said, “Sirs, please come to my house, and I will serve you. There you can wash your feet and stay the night. Then tomorrow you can continue your journey.”

The angels answered, “No, we will stay the night in the city square.”

3 But Lot continued to ask them to come to his house, so they agreed and went with him. Lot gave them something to drink. He baked some bread for them, and they ate it.

4 That evening, just before bedtime, men from every part of town came to Lot’s house. They stood around the house and called to Lot. They said, 5 “Where are the two men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us. We want to have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside and closed the door behind him. 7 He said to the men, No, my friends, I beg you, please don’t do this evil thing! 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man before. I will give my daughters to you. You can do anything you want with them. But please don’t do anything to these men. They have come to my house, and I must protect them.”

9 The men surrounding the house answered, “Get out of our way!” They said to themselves, “This man Lot came to our city as a visitor. Now he wants to tell us how we should live!” Then the men said to Lot, “We will do worse things to you than to them.” So the men started moving closer and closer to Lot. They were about to break down the door.

10 But the two men staying with Lot opened the door, pulled him back inside the house, and closed the door. 11 Then they did something to the men outside the door—they caused all these evil men, young and old, to become blind. So the men trying to get in the house could not find the door.


I don't care what else Lot may have done, offering up his virgin daughters as whores doesn't seem redeemable in my book.

Anybody care to explain/justify this abominable behavior?


.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I don't think Lot's behavior can be justified. Yet, possibly in the stress of the situation may be understandable. I suppose he was so in awe of having such heavenly. righteous visitors that he was willing to do anything to honor and protect them from the men of the city. But I don't think that justifies offering his daughters and I guess the angels didn't think so either considering the action they took.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
In describing Lot, Wikipedia says "Christians revere Lot as a righteous man of God."
Project Gutenberg says, "Despite Lot's flaws, Christians view him as a righteous man."
source

However, after reading the story of his stay in Sodom I can't figure out why. Particularly because of what he does to his daughters.

GENESIS 19: 1-11
Lot’s Visitors
1
That evening the two angels came to the city of Sodom. Lot was sitting near the city gates and saw them. He got up and went to them. He bowed to show respect and said, “Sirs, please come to my house, and I will serve you. There you can wash your feet and stay the night. Then tomorrow you can continue your journey.”

The angels answered, “No, we will stay the night in the city square.”

3 But Lot continued to ask them to come to his house, so they agreed and went with him. Lot gave them something to drink. He baked some bread for them, and they ate it.

4 That evening, just before bedtime, men from every part of town came to Lot’s house. They stood around the house and called to Lot. They said, 5 “Where are the two men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us. We want to have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside and closed the door behind him. 7 He said to the men, “No, my friends, I beg you, please don’t do this evil thing! 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man before. I will give my daughters to you. You can do anything you want with them. But please don’t do anything to these men. They have come to my house, and I must protect them.”

9 The men surrounding the house answered, “Get out of our way!” They said to themselves, “This man Lot came to our city as a visitor. Now he wants to tell us how we should live!” Then the men said to Lot, “We will do worse things to you than to them.” So the men started moving closer and closer to Lot. They were about to break down the door.

10 But the two men staying with Lot opened the door, pulled him back inside the house, and closed the door. 11 Then they did something to the men outside the door—they caused all these evil men, young and old, to become blind. So the men trying to get in the house could not find the door.

I don't care what else Lot may have done, offering up his virgin daughters as whores doesn't seem redeemable in my book.

Anybody care to explain/justify this abominable behavior?

You seem to forget that they were living in Sodom.....it wasn't young virgin females they were after.... :rolleyes: They had no interest in heterosexual sex.

Lot was stalling for time and trying to protect his guests from what he knew these deviates wanted to do with them, which is why he invited them to stay at his house in the first place. It was the culturally expected thing among God's worshippers; they were known for their hospitality....and he did not know at first, that they were angels, so he obviously underestimated their ability to take care of themselves.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Ultimately the story is really about the extreme importance of hospitality to guests, which was a big theme in many of the cultures of that time. Lot would rather offer up his daughters to the mob rather than let his guests be harmed. It's extreme in its presentation, but its message makes perfect sense in the context of the culture it hails from.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why would Lot have moved there in the first place?
Tom

Abram and his Nephew Lot left Ur at God's request and at first settled in Canaan. After some time, the accumulated possessions of Lot and Abram had become many, and the land was unable to sustain them together. Also, quarreling arose between their herdsmen. (Ge 13:5-7) Abram, not wishing to see this continue, suggested that they separate, giving his nephew the choice of land. Lot selected a well-watered area, the whole district of Lower Jordan. He moved his camp to the E and eventually pitched tent near Sodom. (Ge 13:8-12) But Lot did not become like the Sodomites. He proved himself to be a “righteous man” who “by what he saw and heard while dwelling among them from day to day was tormenting his righteous soul by reason of their lawless deeds.” (2 Pet 2:8.) This was before the formation of the nation of Israel...before Abram had his name changed to Abraham and before the birth of Isaac.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
He proved himself to be a “righteous man”
Aside from inviting some good looking strangers home for the night, I see no evidence of righteousness. By the end of the story he is committing some dreadful acts, at least by modern moral codes like mine. So where is the righteousness?
Tom
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Aside from inviting some good looking strangers home for the night, I see no evidence of righteousness. By the end of the story he is committing some dreadful acts, at least by modern moral codes like mine. So where is the righteousness?
Tom

As it says in 2 Pet 2:6-10....
"And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come. 7 And he rescued righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the brazen conduct of the lawless people— 8 for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling among them. 9 So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment, 10 especially those who seek to defile the flesh of others and who despise authority."

Peter calls Lot a "righteous man" so God must have thought enough of him to sent his angels to rescue him and his family from that awful environment......but if you are referring to the fact that Lot's daughter got him drunk and had intercourse with their father to procure offspring, that can seem like a very unrighteous thing to do....but when you know the full story, you can see it in a different light.

As you know, Lot's son's in law did not believe that God was going to destroy Sodom so they remained in the city. Lot's wife was originally safe but disobeyed the directive not to look back. She was killed instantly. This left Lot alone with his two daughters in the mountains with no one but each other. In order for lot's family line not to pass away, his daughters thought of only one way to preserve their father's name...to give him sons. They knew that he would never consent to sleep with them because he was a righteous man, so they got him drunk and both became pregnant. It is also interesting to note that this was before any law on incest was written down in any law...before the nation of Israel was even formed. There is no condemnation stated in the scriptures at all about this situation, most likely because their motives were not wrong....and Lot's sons became nations...the Moabites and the Ammonites.

Paul said you can't break a law that doesn't exist. No law existed at the time and incest was common in those ancient times. Abraham and Sarah were half brother and sister.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You seem to forget that they were living in Sodom.....it wasn't young virgin females they were after.... :rolleyes: They had no interest in heterosexual sex.
So why did Lot offer up his two virgin daughters as whores? He had to have thought that if they sufficed the two visitors would be spared.

Lot was stalling for time and trying to protect his guests from what he knew these deviates wanted to do with them, which is why he invited them to stay at his house in the first place.
Nope. According to the story Lot invited them to his home with no idea of what would transpire later on with the men folk of the town. “Sirs, please come to my house, and I will serve you. There you can wash your feet and stay the night. Then tomorrow you can continue your journey.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So why did Lot offer up his two virgin daughters as whores? He had to have thought that if they sufficed the two visitors would be spared.

If you read the scripture, you will see that the men of Sodom were deviates, Peter wrote, "And he rescued righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the brazen conduct of the lawless people— 8 for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling among them."

The men were strangers in town, he wanted to bring them under his roof for protection because he knew what would happen if they spent the night outdoors.
And as if the name of the city did not give them away, the men were not interested in Lot's daughters.


According to the story Lot invited them to his home with no idea of what would transpire later on with the men folk of the town. “Sirs, please come to my house, and I will serve you. There you can wash your feet and stay the night. Then tomorrow you can continue your journey.

It was the custom of God's people to take strangers into their home to feed them, protect them and refresh them for their journey. This is reflected in Jesus' instructions to his apostles.

Matthew 10:9, 10
"Do not acquire gold or silver or copper for your money belts, 10 or a food pouch for the trip, or two garments, or sandals, or a staff, for the worker deserves his food."

Mark 6:7-9
"He now summoned the Twelve and started sending them out two by two, and he gave them authority over the unclean spirits. 8 Also, he gave them orders to carry nothing for the trip except a staff—no bread, no food pouch, no money in their belts— 9 but to put on sandals and not to wear two garments."

Luke 9:2, 3
"And he sent them out to preach the Kingdom of God and to heal, 3 and he said to them: “Carry nothing for the trip, neither staff nor food pouch nor bread nor money; neither have two garments."

If you are going to post this kind of response...at least get your facts straight. o_O
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...

Peter calls Lot a "righteous man" so God must have thought enough of him to sent his angels to rescue him and his family from that awful environment......but if you are referring to the fact that Lot's daughter got him drunk and had intercourse with their father to procure offspring, that can seem like a very unrighteous thing to do....but when you know the full story, you can see it in a different light.

I don't agree with that in the slightest. First, in the story they were told they would be safe in Zoar, but they don't listen and head for the mountains, - where they have sex with their father - supposedly because they thought they were all that was left.

Which of course is bull, as the angels told them the city of Zoar is safe, thus there are other men to have sex with. As well as all the cities that were not in the plain.

Gen 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.


As you know, Lot's son's in law did not believe that God was going to destroy Sodom so they remained in the city. Lot's wife was originally safe but disobeyed the directive not to look back. She was killed instantly.

According to the story both lot and wife don't want to leave their daughters. The angels force them outside the walls. I think the story is actually telling us her mother love turned her around to go back after her daughters - and she died. Not for disobeying.

This left Lot alone with his two daughters in the mountains with no one but each other. In order for lot's family line not to pass away, his daughters thought of only one way to preserve their father's name...to give him sons.

This isn't correct. see above.

They knew that he would never consent to sleep with them because he was a righteous man, so they got him drunk and both became pregnant. It is also interesting to note that this was before any law on incest was written down in any law...before the nation of Israel was even formed. There is no condemnation stated in the scriptures at all about this situation, most likely because their motives were not wrong....and Lot's sons became nations...the Moabites and the Ammonites.

Paul said you can't break a law that doesn't exist. No law existed at the time and incest was common in those ancient times. Abraham and Sarah were half brother and sister.

As shown - they had no reason to think they were alone - as only a specific area was to be destroyed, and they were given a safe city - Zoar - which would have men to sleep with.

Also if the father was so drunk he didn't recognize his daughters - he wouldn't be able to get and maintain an erection.

This story comes across as garbled, false, and made up to explain ruined cities they came across.

I might add that in 18 we are told by YHVH that if even ten righteous are found he won't destroy the city.

These are cities with children and babies - how can infants be unrighteous?

So in this story YHVH doesn't keep his word.

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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You seem to forget that they were living in Sodom.....it wasn't young virgin females they were after.... :rolleyes: They had no interest in heterosexual sex.

Lot was stalling for time and trying to protect his guests from what he knew these deviates wanted to do with them, which is why he invited them to stay at his house in the first place. It was the culturally expected thing among God's worshippers; they were known for their hospitality....and he did not know at first, that they were angels, so he obviously underestimated their ability to take care of themselves.

It doesn't actually say homosexuality is the sin of Sodom.

It also says all the people young and old - not just men.

We also have a second story almost exactly the same, also using YADA - in which we are told they wanted to KILL him.

In an earlier verse YHVH uses a form of the word - to mean Judge and punish.

Gen 19:9 tells us the people knew they had come to JUDGE and punish.

It makes far more sense that they wanted the men brought out so they could JUDGE and punish them first.

Why would lot offer females to homosexual men? That makes no sense.

*
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
If you read the scripture, you will see that the men of Sodom were deviates, Peter wrote, "And he rescued righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the brazen conduct of the lawless people— 8 for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling among them."
It doesn't say all of the men of Sodom, does it. Only "lawless people."

................2 Peter 2: 6-8

............6 God also punished the evil cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. He burned them until there was nothing left but ashes. He used those cities as an example of what will happen to people who are against God. .7 But he saved Lot, a good man who lived there. Lot was greatly troubled by the morally bad lives of those evil people. 8 This good man lived with those evil people every day, and his good heart was hurt .by the evil things he saw and heard.

But because the Genesis story doesn't indicate this at all, Peter is only presuming it to be true. Bad Peter! Bad! Moreover, isn't it interesting that while god killed off all the bad guys he also killed off all the innocent: women and children. Nice guy, this god of yours. :rolleyes:

The men were strangers in town, he wanted to bring them under his roof for protection because he knew what would happen if they spent the night outdoors.
Nice speculation, but not supported by scripture at all. Can't do that Deeje, no matter how convenient it may be. Gotta stick with what we know, or can logically conclude..

And as if the name of the city did not give them away, the men were not interested in Lot's daughters.
Yeah sure, like back referencing is going to help your case. :rolleyes:


It was the custom of God's people to take strangers into their home to feed them, protect them and refresh them for their journey. This is reflected in Jesus' instructions to his apostles.
So what? It's already been established that Lot did a nice thing. .

Matthew 10:9, 10
"Do not acquire gold or silver or copper for your money belts, 10 or a food pouch for the trip, or two garments, or sandals, or a staff, for the worker deserves his food."

Mark 6:7-9
"He now summoned the Twelve and started sending them out two by two, and he gave them authority over the unclean spirits. 8 Also, he gave them orders to carry nothing for the trip except a staff—no bread, no food pouch, no money in their belts— 9 but to put on sandals and not to wear two garments."

Luke 9:2, 3
"And he sent them out to preach the Kingdom of God and to heal, 3 and he said to them: “Carry nothing for the trip, neither staff nor food pouch nor bread nor money; neither have two garments."
Sorry, but irrelevant preaching isn't going to cut it. Stick to what we can logically conclude from what is said. Anything else amounts to begging the question.

Of course the point still stands: Lot offered up his virgin daughters as whores, yet Christians still regard him as a righteous man........Go figure.


.
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Peter is a moron, another attempt to shoehorn something that simply didn't exist (for instance, in one breath will want us to believe "no one is righteous" and here is Peter claiming a guy who WANTED to move to "Sin City" was righteous!). God is rescuing Lot only for Abe's benefit. Why not rescue the infants? Lot has been captured before, IIRC. He chooses a land of plenty (so that means he left Abe with grass stubble, essentially) instead of honoring his elder who should've gotten that claim, right? He lives in a city (where are his flocks now?) known, supposedly, for evil people. He throws his girls to the wolves (and in comeuppance, gets raped by said daughters later). He is NOT NICE. However, it basically admits it is a farce story meant to insult neighboring tribes annoying the Hebrews, so ...
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
y
...

And as if the name of the city did not give them away, the men were not interested in Lot's daughters.


... o_O

Actually both names mean ruins.

H5467

sedôm

sed-ome'

From an unused root meaning to scorch; burnt (that is, volcanic or bituminous) district; Sedom, a place near the Dead Sea: - Sodom.

H6017

‛ămôrâh

am-o-raw'

From H6014; a (ruined) heap; Amorah, a place in Palestine: - Gomorrah.

Isn't it interesting that both places are called ruins - BEFORE - the supposed destroying in Gen 19?

These names however, tie in perfectly, with what most archaeologists have been saying - every time Christian archaeologists claim they have found Sodom and Gomorrah.

What do they say? The ruins were there BEFORE the Hebrew went through the area.

So it would seem they found scorched ruins - and came up with a teaching story as to why they were that way.

EDIT – Forgot to add – that this shows how later translators are homophobic – and need to make things fit their preconceived ideas.

They insist the Sodom story is about homosexuals – so we get later words like sodomite – when Sodom actually means ruins.

Then these later translators start altering the texts they are translating. Thus whore and sodomite get added to Deu 23:17 for instance.

Deu 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

When it actually says –

Deu 23:17 There shall be no Qadeshah of the daughters of Israel, nor a Qadesh of the sons of Israel.

Sacred Prostitutes – not homosexuals.

The homophobic changing of texts is horrible, and needs to be stopped.


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Skwim

Veteran Member
Peter is a moron, another attempt to shoehorn something that simply didn't exist (for instance, in one breath will want us to believe "no one is righteous" and here is Peter claiming a guy who WANTED to move to "Sin City" was righteous!). God is rescuing Lot only for Abe's benefit. Why not rescue the infants? Lot has been captured before, IIRC. He chooses a land of plenty (so that means he left Abe with grass stubble, essentially) instead of honoring his elder who should've gotten that claim, right? He lives in a city (where are his flocks now?) known, supposedly, for evil people. He throws his girls to the wolves (and in comeuppance, gets raped by said daughters later). He is NOT NICE. However, it basically admits it is a farce story meant to insult neighboring tribes annoying the Hebrews, so ...
Yeah, isn't this a nice finale to the tale.

Genesis 19
33 That night the two girls went to their father and got him drunk with wine. Then the older daughter went and had sexual relations with him. He did not even know when she came to bed or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger daughter, “Last night I went to bed with my father. Let’s get him drunk with wine again tonight. Then you can go and have sex with him. In this way we can use our father to have children, and our family will not come to an end.” 35 So that night the two girls got their father drunk with wine. Then the younger daughter went and had sexual relations with him. Again, Lot did not know when she came to bed or when she got up.
As if the old man was masturbated and then had sex with his daughters without knowing it. Give me a break---it would never happen.m Nnenvnenr !

First Lot offers up his virgin daughters as whores, then he knowingly has incestuous sex with them. Yes indeed, a righteous man if ever there was one.
roll_eyes_smiley_by_mirz123.gif
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I don't think Lot's behavior can be justified. Yet, possibly in the stress of the situation may be understandable. I suppose he was so in awe of having such heavenly. righteous visitors that he was willing to do anything to honor and protect them from the men of the city. But I don't think that justifies offering his daughters and I guess the angels didn't think so either considering the action they took.

Do angels need protecion from rapists? What about flapping their wings and escape the threat, instead of letting Lot to offer their daughters instead? I am sure they appreciated Lot's hospitality and the nice conversation, tea and cookies while those poor girls were gang raped.

Like someone else said, what value is there in swearing a oath to a book that contains stories like that and sells them as "righteous"?

Ciao

- viole
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
As if the old man was masturbated and then had sex with his daughters without knowing it. Give me a break---it would never happen.m Nnenvnenr !
You've apparently never been so drunk that you don't remember what happened last night. I done it once, and haven't drank even close to that much since (I literally woke up wondering how I made it to my bed, because I did not remember making it to my bed, and a few days later I was reminded I ordered a couple things off Ebay, something else that I had entirely forgotten about because I drank way too much).
 
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