Lost Years of Jesus

[nash8]

There are a lot of similarities between the two stories. It seems too coincidental they are so much alike. I think it is likely the author of the gospel of Luke used Josephus’s childhood story to formulate Jesus’s childhood story. The author cleverly throws his readers off his scent of deceit. The very first line in the preface to Luke’s Gospel reads, “Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us”. (Luke 1:1) The word “many” implies there was a lot written about Jesus before Luke wrote his own Gospel, but was there? Jesus’s ministry lasted anywhere between a few months to a few years. If we take each and every word Jesus spoke from the four canonical gospels and put them end to end it would only take a few hours to read them. If we would add the Gospel of Thomas to the mix, it wouldn’t be much longer. Jesus either didn’t have much to say doing all that time or the gospel writers didn’t know much about Jesus. There is a pretty good chance Luke didn’t have much to work with when he wrote his gospel. More than likely he had used the Gospel of Mark as one of his sources. If not the Gospel of Mark, then he used whatever the source of Mark was. In addition to the gospel of Mark, Luke had used the hypothetical Q Gospel. The Q gospel may very well have been the Gospel of Thomas. In order to tie together the different themes and stories Luke had gathered he had used a sort of creative license.

Although, I would agree with you on the "creative" license of Luke, there is also a prevailing view that Luke was a traveler with Paul. If that was the case, then he would have had a ton to work with if it is true that Paul actually met Jesus' direct disciples and/or relatives. Then, dependent on when the first actual copy of Luke was written, it might not have even been possible that he would have taken from The Life of Flavius Josephus because it was written before.

The Life of Flavius Josephus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gospel of Luke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don’t think there is anything Pauline in any of the canonical gospels. The theology of Jesus is different than the theology of Paul. Jesus was born a Jew. During his life he was an observant Jew. Jesus died as a Jew. Paul on the other hand told the Jews the Torah is obsolete and to throw it out the window. If it wasn’t for Paul the Jews may have followed Jesus.

If luke was the physician companion of Paul as has been promoted by some, I don't think that would have been the case. However, I do agree with you that that Paul and the other apostles did not always agree on everything, and it is very likely that the gospels not based on Paul's teaching were very different from those that were.
Paul Versus the Disciples.

Mmmh, Jesus might have been born a Jew ethnically speaking, but it is not neccesarily true that he was an observant Jew. And even if he was, the vast multitude of Jewish sects and their diverse beliefs would not give a clear definitions of what being "a Jew" was. For example, if Jesus grew up as an Essene, his views would have been in stark contrast to mainstream Jewish thought for the most part. Epiphanius even says that two sects of the Essenes either regarded the book of Moses as a book of law, and not neccesarily the inspired word of God.
Essenes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted Epiphanius view might have been skewed, but he was noted to be the keeper of "heretical ideas", and much of the heresies of the church only exist because of his documents. So at the least it can be said that he was interested in recording things that the church was not neccesarily fond of.

 

[oldbadger]

E Raymond Capt's, "The Traditions of Glastonbury: The Biblical Missing Years of Christ Answered", claims the Talmud lists Joseph of Arimathea as Mary's uncle. It also claims evidence Joseph was a wealthy shipping merchant who provisioned Rome with lead and tin from some of the world's largest mines at the time, among which were in the Mendip Hills of Britain. So wealthy and influential was Joseph that Rome gave him the title, "Nobilus Decurio" (Minister of mines).

It also suggests there is archeological evidence that Jesus traveled extensively with his uncle in his youth, including to Britain. Mary too accompanied them on some of these trips. However, there is no evidence that Jesus' father Joseph ever accompanied them. It is likely that Joseph of Arimathaea became Jesus' legal guardian and Mary's protector, given that Mary's husband Joseph likely died at some time during Jesus' youth. The book is on my "to read" list so I have yet to verify its sources.

Very very interesting...

Of course, traders from 20 miles up are known to have been trading with South West England a long time before Jesus's life.... the tin mines of Cornwall were suppliers to the Phoenicians, etc...

I will look out for that Author and book.

I'm also interested about 'Arithamea', which I believe is deep in the heart of Samaria. I've never understood how the Samarians fitted into the religion, geography and politics of the country. It looks as if they worshipped the same God, had the same prophets, kept similar feasts (although in a separate place), and were treated in the same way by the Romans.... and yet they are totally excluded from the other Jewish states, treated as murdering pagans, etc. And yet, Joseph came from Arithamea. I think there's a lot of bullsh-t about the Samarians that needs digging out and using for manure! :yes:

 

[oldbadger]

Not saying that Jesus was one of these type of people, just saying formal education is not inherently required to be able to discuss in depth intellectual ideas.

Yep........ very good point....

I've read a book called Jesus The Explosive Story of the 30 Lost Years and the Ancient Mystery Religions.

It covers these stories pretty in depth. There is a lot of correlation, but very little hardcore evidence, at least for Jesus being with his "uncle". There's definitely more evidence (written documents and such) for a man with a similar name to Joseph of Arimathaea traveling to Brittain, but very little for Jesus. Definitely implies a lot of correlation, but skeptics would likely pick it apart very easily.

All massively interesting and providing many possibilities for answers to the lost years. All good for thought. I find that many people have not 'clicked' on the fact that merchants were travelling thousands of miles to trade, including known venues such as Cornwall, England, millenia before Jesus. There seems to be a mindset that has all these NT characters locked for their whole lives in Palestine.

As for the skeptics, there are several on RF who completely dismiss any and every part of Jesus's existence, given that fact, I have no mission to prove anything to anybody because I know that some will be incorrigible, if that's the right word. I now pursue my studies simply for the joy of what discoveries and possibilities can be found and taken into consideration.....

 

[nash8]

Yep........ very good point....



All massively interesting and providing many possibilities for answers to the lost years. All good for thought. I find that many people have not 'clicked' on the fact that merchants were travelling thousands of miles to trade, including known venues such as Cornwall, England, millenia before Jesus. There seems to be a mindset that has all these NT characters locked for their whole lives in Palestine.

As for the skeptics, there are several on RF who completely dismiss any and every part of Jesus's existence, given that fact, I have no mission to prove anything to anybody because I know that some will be incorrigible, if that's the right word. I now pursue my studies simply for the joy of what discoveries and possibilities can be found and taken into consideration.....

Indeed, people seem to think that it would have been impossible for Jesus to have visited all these places during the timeline of his life, but it is very much possible that he could have traveled to all of these places before he began his formal ministry.

Well, I'll just say that I am not a skeptic in any sense of the word, and actually personally believe that Jesus did travel India, England, and Egypt before starting his ministry. But even though I believe the idea promoted by the book, I still found a lot of the sources the author used to promote these ideas as sketchy at best.

Now, the connections to these places by people that Jesus is suspected to have known during his life, they are a lot more concrete. But at the same time, I find the connections to these places through people Jesus supposedly knew, and the lack of concrete evidence that he was there to be even more interesting. All of the logical paths are there, but the evidence of is not. STRANGE

 

[oldbadger]

Indeed, people seem to think that it would have been impossible for Jesus to have visited all these places during the timeline of his life, but it is very much possible that he could have traveled to all of these places before he began his formal ministry.

Well, I'll just say that I am not a skeptic in any sense of the word, and actually personally believe that Jesus did travel India, England, and Egypt before starting his ministry. But even though I believe the idea promoted by the book, I still found a lot of the sources the author used to promote these ideas as sketchy at best.

Now, the connections to these places by people that Jesus is suspected to have known during his life, they are a lot more concrete. But at the same time, I find the connections to these places through people Jesus supposedly knew, and the lack of concrete evidence that he was there to be even more interesting. All of the logical paths are there, but the evidence of is not. STRANGE

All good points.....

Here's a kind of answer as to 'evidence'. We know that Phoenicians traded with Cornwall, but do we know the name of a single boat skipper on that 'run', or a single merchant?

Jesus was just a somebody, anybody, who?-body, until he took over from JtB and began his own mission. Ergo, nobody thought to record anything about his 'lost' life. But whatever he did, he was one brilliant healer, counselor, user of placebos, with amazing skills in helping people in and with hysteria. He must have traveled to learn all that.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus was just a somebody, anybody, who?-body, until he took over from JtB and began his own mission. Ergo, nobody thought to record anything about his 'lost' life.
.

This applies to his whole life, when he was alive. Only in death did he find any fame at all.

But whatever he did, he was one brilliant healer, counselor, user of placebos, with amazing skills in helping people in and with hysteria. He must have traveled to learn all that

We dont know that at all.

 

[oldbadger]

This applies to his whole life, when he was alive. Only in death did he find any fame at all.

Hi....
No! He was famous during his ministry. This is why thousands of people flocked to see, hear and appeal to him. There are many accounts of how famous he was during his ministry, and oral tradition carried all this into the written word. I do accept tat that written word was mucked about with, etc, but Mark's book shows us just how famous he was in life.

We dont know that at all.

Know? We are debating about probabilities and possibilities, surely? The so-called experts still argue about his birth, baptism and crucifixion.

Reports of his amazing cures do suggest that he was a true healer. I've written about Harry Edwards before, and how, after seeing him at Leatherhead, Surrey, England in 1974 my wife did not have any more hysterical fits until circa 1976(?) at which time I discovered that Mr Edwards had died. I do believe that Jesus had healing abilities such as this, and may have learned herbal, manipulative and other forms of treatment in his earlier years.

What do you reckon?

 

[outhouse]

Hi....
No! He was famous during his ministry. This is why thousands of people flocked to see, hear and appeal to him. There are many accounts of how famous he was during his ministry, and oral tradition carried all this into the written word. I do accept tat that written word was mucked about with, etc, but Mark's book shows us just how famous he was in life.

Do you really believe thousands came to see him?

or is that the Hellensitic authors who were not there, building divinity paralleling the Emperors divinity who "did" gather crowds in the thousands.

Issues.

Thousands could not hear him speak.

Thousands could not drop their peasant jobs to hear a teacher, or they would not eat that day.


So I will ask you, which event in the bible that states thousands witnessed him, that has historiicty. Please supply verses, because some may be fiction and have more or less historicity then others. But thousands, nope.

 

[outhouse]

What do you reckon?

I reckon he was a better rebel then a teacher or healer.

teaching or healing at passover with almost half a million people, factually does not get you noticed when thousands of teachers and healers were present.

Not only that, these unknown authors were writing to a Roman audience, and were not going to create a religion highlighted around a rebel leader.

We have characters like Apollonius of Tyana that could have influenced these authors, we dont know. We can only hope it was the other way around. But Apollonius was a Hellenistic teacher and we have Helleistic authors.

 

[oldbadger]

Do you really believe thousands came to see him?
or is that the Hellensitic authors who were not there, building divinity paralleling the Emperors divinity who "did" gather crowds in the thousands.

OK...... maybe thousands could be hyperbole, but there may have been cases where a great many people gathered at the same time. How many did JtB attract at one time?

Thousands could not hear him speak.

Put (say) 20 groups of 100 people in front of yourself. Now call out to them. Or better still, tell a 'son of thunder' to repeat your message. I'm not writing off very large groups of people gathering in places to see, hear and go to him.

Thousands could not drop their peasant jobs to hear a teacher, or they would not eat that day.

No? So how did they travel to the temple for some of the feasts?
I believe that travelling Jews could gain something to eat (by law) from the borders of fields, which farmers were not allowed to harvest?
Further, I don't believe that they were as desperately poor and physically ill as you do. The ages that some disciples died at shows this. We;ve covered this before...?

So I will ask you, which event in the bible that states thousands witnessed him, that has historiicty. Please supply verses, because some may be fiction and have more or less historicity then others. But thousands, nope.

OK....... so we (I!) cannot prove any meeting to have had thousands of visitors, but if that is just your problem..... the quantity of witnesses at any one time, let's just go with large crowds of people.

I can't give verses just now (no bible, too painful to walk to bedroom for it) but in Mark, the crowd in Capernum at the start of his mission, outside Peters house.
The crowd on the shore a few days later, after Levi's celebration party, when Jesus moved just offshore in the boat (remember? You believed that Simon, Andrew, James and John abandoned everything a few days before? No.)
There's the first couple of scores.

The fact that Jesus could not cope with the masses and resorted to getting away to the North for a while, shows how big the crowds were.

Proof? No proof I'm afraid. Many say you can't prove he lived.

 

[steeltoes]

All the lost years accounted for yet?

 

[Awoon]

What's your opinion on what happen?

No history before he was 30. Oh wait, he was born in Bethlehem, but was from Nazareth, was found in a temple when he was 12.

The same could be asked of Noah, Abraham, Elijah, Simon, Paul, Jacob, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Made up characters have no history in history.

 

[oldbadger]

I reckon he was a better rebel then a teacher or healer.

I think that he was a natural choice because he could draw crowds just because he was a healer. He had abilities that attracted crowds. That gave the opportunity for speeches and recuitment. If he could not heal then few or less would have come.
He did take up the challenge of rebellion, imo, but clearly his ideas of how to proceed were different when compared with Judas of G, or Judas ibn Ezekiah, etc.
Teacher? I'm losing interest in that word. When (say) politicians make speeches about how we can develop the community or improve things, I don't think of them as teachers. Or when people give guidance to us, I am more inclined to think of 'counselor'.

teaching or healing at passover with almost half a million people, factually does not get you noticed when thousands of teachers and healers were present.

As you know, in your previous post you put it that peasants could not afford to travel. Half a million have just rolled up to the temple in this post. You see? They could afford to travel much further than just down to the Lake of G.
So....... why would I mention healing at passover? Try meetings from earlier in his ministry.

Not only that, these unknown authors were writing to a Roman audience, and were not going to create a religion highlighted around a rebel leader.

But they included so much of the original tale as passed up to them from Oral trad. I once read that Mark went to Alexandria after Cephas's death, carrying his memoirs, written by or for him.

We have characters like Apollonius of Tyana that could have influenced these authors, we dont know. We can only hope it was the other way around. But Apollonius was a Hellenistic teacher and we have Helleistic authors.

Yes, I enjoy reading about probable and almost certain adoptions of other writings into the Gospels. So let's exclude them, but if you want to write off all that has been written then it's time for you to take up..... sailing? Golf? Chess? What do you fancy?
I believe that much of the Gospels was based upon some truth, and that is my interest, learning more about it. I believe that you do as well.

 

[oldbadger]

All the lost years accounted for yet?

Hi....!

I still reckon that Jesus was a brilliant swimmer, and borrowed the Pharaoh's speedboat to water-ski along the Nile, sometimes. But I'm having difficulty in convincing anybody that he trailered that boat to Galilee, and that is how he was seen whizzing out to the distressed disciples that night.... you're all a crowd of unreasonable skeptics imo......:yes:

 

[oldbadger]

Thousands could not drop their peasant jobs to hear a teacher, or they would not eat that day.

Hello again..... I had to come back to this.
There could well be some truth in what you say, but it is connected to the long journey to the Temple.
Luke 13:1 .............the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.............

This mitigates strongly towards any proposal that some Galileans either could not afford or simply did not want to journey to the Temple, or pay the fees and taxes.

Or was this altered from 'Samaritans' for some purpose?
There were present at that season some that told him of the Samaritans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Samaritans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things?
Does that make any more sense? I don't think that Samaritans did all go to the Temple....?

 

[outhouse]

I think that he was a natural choice because he could draw crowds just because he was a healer

You do undertsand that teachers and healers were very very common? even good ones.

 

[outhouse]

He did take up the challenge of rebellion,


.

Rebel?

Temple incident, and written possibilities.

Peter has a sword and swipes a ear off.
Galileans blood mingled near altar. When exactly?
A Galilean is crucified.
A Galilean tries to start a incident riot over money.
A Galilean possibly mocks Pilates grand entry into the temple. [adventos] I think
One disciple noted as a zealot.

 

[outhouse]

In a small village, how many people do you think one man could teach, that could actually hear him?

Emperors had amphitheaters.


Some scholars guess 20-30

 

[steeltoes]

Hi....!

I still reckon that Jesus was a brilliant swimmer, and borrowed the Pharaoh's speedboat to water-ski along the Nile, sometimes. But I'm having difficulty in convincing anybody that he trailered that boat to Galilee, and that is how he was seen whizzing out to the distressed disciples that night.... you're all a crowd of unreasonable skeptics imo......:yes:

Skepticism is not the problem, it's the certainty of those that "know."

 

[roger1440]

All the lost years accounted for yet?

There is still about 30 years not accounted for.