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Losing TRUST as a core value

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by icehorse, Nov 28, 2022.

  1. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    To me, most of the philosophies worth considering take a few values as axiomatic. In other words, these philosophies assume certain values are in play, and that they may not be logically defensible.

    With that said, it seems to me that one such core value is TRUST. It seems self-evident to me that without trust, our lives and society would fall into horrible, violent, catastrophic collapse.

    It also seems to me that in our post-truth, alternate facts, conspiracy theory riddled, extremist culture, we're quickly losing sight of the need for trust.

    I'm wondering whether talking to these post-truth folks we might be able to communicate better if we lead with a discussion about the essential nature of trust in any functioning society?
     
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  2. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane My own religion

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    Well, I have another take. That is not so for all humans, it is a consequence of a combinations of beliefs in some cultures.

    But the core problem is that there is no objective truth for trust. It only works if you in effect have non-religious faith in it. You have to have trust in trust for it to work. Now for culture, where it works, it is a part of the social upbringing, but for people, who in effect haven't learned that, it becomes weird, because you have to have trust in trust for it to work.
     
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  3. Left Coast

    Left Coast The Fabulous
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    I don't know that such folks will necessarily be convinced by a philosophical discussion on the need for trust. I don't think they're in a mindset to even entertain the conversation. What I do think may help are strategies to build trust in and with them. This probably has to be done at the ground level, in communities, between neighbors and friends and family members. A little empathy and direct, face-to-face help and humanity can go a long way to building trust with folks.
     
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  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Registered People sTabber

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    One hand I want to agree, but on the other hand I want to disagree and delve into the layers of trust, such as personal factors and issues going into it.
     
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  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Registered People sTabber

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    The issue is when you have someone like a very hardened Christian who knows some atheists and is prejudiced towards them because they are atheists.
    There's many examples where this face to face thing just doesn't work out.
     
  6. Left Coast

    Left Coast The Fabulous
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    It's not 100% effective. Nothing in life is. But it works with some people. Which is better than none. :shrug:
     
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  7. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane My own religion

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    It has nothing to do with that as such. That is a particular version of it in general. Please don't make this into yet another American thread about a general human condition.
     
  8. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I'm afraid it is in the nature of any of the conspiracy-believing, gullible, poorly educated and/or religious types to believe without evidence, often even in the face of contradictory evidence. One would expect this to frequently lead to terrible disappointment, but there's tons of evidence that humans can invoke a variety of strategies to avoid this: cognitive dissonance, selective memory, even outright dismissal of data right under our noses.

    I TRUST people that I know well, because I've observed their behaviours. I trust evidence and data because it is generally definitive. I distrust hear-say, I distrust people I do not know to the extent that while I'm willing to credit what they say about themselves, I'm not ready to commit my goods or my well-being to them --- yet.

    Unfortunately, humans are still largely religious -- prepared (as Sam Clemens once said) to "believe what they know ain't so." As a consequence, there is a pretty hefty tendency to ignore the use of critical thinking before their emotions carry them away and we end up with another January 6, or stolen election, or street riot, or pilgimmage to Lourdes or Mecca.
     
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  9. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I'd love to think that malevolence doesn't happen and trustworthiness is a signature of being human.

    I'd have to say a person can be compassionate, to cold hearted or driven by hatred. There are signs of trustworthiness or lack thereof in those qualities.

    If people make life worth living for others I'd say trust develops through doing that. Those kinds of actions are a show of compassion.

    Kindness and a general love for the well being of others goes a long way in developing trust.

    In a cold hearted world trust is earned because people don't know who to trust and who not to trust.
     
  10. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Wide Web
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    Trust is absolutely the most difficult thing to gain back once it has been lost. Whether trust in yourself, others, or both. It is one of like 4 core things I think that are similarly intrinsic, yet difficult to regain: Safety, Trust, Power/Control, Esteem.
     
    #10 The Hammer, Nov 28, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2022
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  11. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    I am not sure that trust is a universal value. It is very commonly considered a value, however there are people who are unable to trust. This may be infrequent currently and in our experience, however the frequency could become very high at times and in some places. Its entirely possible that there are societies in which trust is considered a madness.

    Actually I have heard rumors of one or maybe two such places, but I don't want to spread them.
     
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  12. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    We're agreed, that's why I started the OP with the whole discussion of axioms. But you put it nicely:

    you have to have faith in trust :)
     
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  13. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Thanks for all the replies. I guess to say a little more, what I'm thinking is that maybe conversations that help demonstrate how many things in life we ALL take for granted that actually require trust:

    - our homes and plumbing and electricity will be safe
    - our roads and bridges and cars will be safe
    - our food and water will be safe
    - oncoming drivers won't - almost universally - decide to turn into traffic
    - we mostly don't choose to rob or shoot each other

    In other words, let's say you're a trump republican. Whenever you go grocery shopping, you're actually putting trust in all of the things I mentioned above, even if democrats were in charge of building them.
     
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  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Registered People sTabber

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    It's a fact of history that is still today that living with someone, knowing people of other groups, that doesn't ensure empathy or a peaceful coexistence.
    I used the example of atheism because we all likely know some but that doesn't stop certain types from viewing them as untrustable and lacking morality.
    This contempt for atheists does go back to Europe. As do a lot of other groups who failed to coexist peacefully.
     
  15. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, trust seems like it is best placed very close to the foundation, but it seems like an emergent value.
     
  16. idea

    idea Question Everything

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    Trust is over-rated. Much better to study, experiment, seek evidence and real understanding than not know and "trust" some random hunch.

    Truth > Trust
    Data > Trust
     
  17. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Didn’t a part of game theory show that this is not the case? Moreover haven’t robot wars over the prisoners dilemma in Axelrod’s tournaments given is ample evidence that trust and cooperation (and punitive responses)are optimal strategies? I don’t think one needs to have trust in trust at a macro level. The value of trust and cooperation rest on a solid foundation, even while anecdotally those concept may seem dicey.

    this is not true culturally. This is true universally. Culture can play a role in trust, such that insider-outsider positionality creates barriers. But that doesn’t negate the inherent value in trust for all cultures.
     
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  18. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    I think “otherness” focus is sharper in some groups. While we have evolved to cooperate we have also evolved to discriminate and categorize. Both are powerful tools to understand and navigate our world. Some groups cater to ego and focus more on otherness to solidify a cohort.
     
  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Registered People sTabber

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    I'm denying it does happen, and it often does, but often times it doesn't.
     
  20. icehorse

    icehorse Veteran Member
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    Lots of different facets to trust and perspectives on trust that I hadn't considered.

    I think the perspective I'm thinking about is that we can tend to lose sight of the implicit trust in others that we exercise in our day to day routines. I'm wondering if folks got back in touch with the implicit trust they have in others, maybe speaking these things explicitly, things might not be so contentious?
     
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