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Losing salvation

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by bibleman10, May 23, 2004.

  1. bibleman10

    bibleman10 New Member

    May 23, 2004
  2. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

    Apr 2, 2004
    Spammers aren't saved. :lol:
  3. TheoGirl

    TheoGirl New Member

    May 22, 2004
    My Heavens, I can see why you were so confused. That was sooo very confusing. They are making something too complex that is really very simple. Some Christians (such as Methodists and others) believe they can lose their salvation. This goes back to the belief that salvation is based on works and only good works can get you into heaven. I dont happen to believe this, so I will let someone who does explain that side. I may not do it justice.

    I believe in the perserverence of the saints, or simply "once saved, always saved." This is found many times in the Bible, but in order to keep things simple and not out of hand I will simply direct you to John 10.14, 28-29.

    SAILORMAN New Member

    May 23, 2004
    for Theogirl, Why would God want all us billions with him in heaven when he has already populated it with myriads of Angels. Yes, some people are destined for heaven to be with Jesus as kings and priests[Rev.14;1-5] They will have a station above the angels due to earthly experience, which angels do not have. Also, James 2;14-17 says that works accompany faith, and these works are what Jesus started. To preach about the coming Kingdom [ Matthew6;9,10] Just doing good for people without worshipping God is not enough. And the end result, if we qualify is stated at Rev. 21;3-5. To live without death, sickness or pain. If we do not die, then we live on, forever. And none of the above is my idea. Its in the Bible.

    SAILORMAN New Member

    May 23, 2004
    And P.S. ...I am unable to find any refereence in my bible to any "Saint". If the Catholic church believes in Saints, to my mind the concoction of men, then they are following the " teachings of men". Colossions 2;22 "Respecting things that are all destined for destruction by being used up, in accordance with the commands and the teachings of men.
  6. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Mar 24, 2004
    As an 'ex-Catholic', I can attest that saints are indeed the sole creation of man--the idea was probably invented to help inspire the common people (not at all a bad thing). As far as teachings of men go, wasn't the bible written by men...?
  7. Rex

    Rex Founder

    Mar 15, 2004
    I won't tell
    The bible was written by man, but I think it's the belief that god whispered the words to them , or told them what to write..

    I mean thats the only way the bible can be flawless correct?
  8. Mr Spinkles

    Mar 25, 2004
    Assuming the Bible is flawless, yes. But it's not flawless, so it can't be Divinely inspired 100% of the time....the question for Christians is, what was divinely inspired, and what wasn't?

    There is no way of knowing which things in the Bible were and which weren't Divinely inspired, so the denominations of Christianity pick and choose which stuff they like and rationalize away the stuff they don't.
  9. TheoGirl

    TheoGirl New Member

    May 22, 2004
    Okay, first of all I am not Catholic. But secondly, I was merely replying to the original question. Ephesians 2.8-9 says "For it is by grace we have been saved through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is a gift from God. NOT BY WORKS SO NO MAN CAN BOAST." (Caps are mine)If we cant do anything to earn our salvation, we cant do anything to lose it. That was all the point I was trying to make.
  10. harold e. rice

    Jun 6, 2004
    Zec 14:5
    And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints
    with thee.
    Mt 27:52
    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    Ac 9:13
    Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
    Ac 9:32
    And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
    Ac 9:41
    And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
    Ac 26:10
    Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

    Ro 1:7
    To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Ro 8:27
    And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    Ro 12:13
    Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
    Ro 15:25
    But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
    Ro 15:26
    For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
    Ro 15:31
    That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;
    Ro 16:2
    That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
    Ro 16:15
    Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
    1Co 1:2
    Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our
    Lord, both theirs and ours:
    1Co 6:1
    Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
    1Co 6:2
    Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
    1Co 14:33
    For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
    1Co 16:1
    Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    1Co 16:15
    I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
    2Co 1:1
    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
    2Co 8:4
    Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
    2Co 9:1
    For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
    2Co 9:12
    For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
    2Co 13:13
    All the saints salute you.
    Eph 1:1
    Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    Eph 1:15
    Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
    Eph 1:18
    The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    Eph 2:19
    Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the
    saints, and of the household of God;
    Eph 3:8
    Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    Eph 3:18
    May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
    Eph 4:12
    For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    Eph 5:3
    But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
    Eph 6:18
    Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
    Php 1:1
    Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
    Php 4:22
    All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
    Col 1:2
    To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Col 1:4
    Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
    Col 1:12
    Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    Col 1:26
    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    1Th 3:13
    To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our
    Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
    2Th 1:10
    When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    1Ti 5:10
    Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if he have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
    Phm 1:5
    Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;
    Phm 1:7
    For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
    Heb 6:10
    For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
    Heb 13:24
    Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
    Jude 1:3
    Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the
    faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
    Jude 1:14
    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord
    cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    Re 5:8
    And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    Re 8:3
    And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon
    the golden altar which was before the throne.
    Re 8:4
    And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
    Re 11:18
    And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
    and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    Re 13:7
    And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    Re 13:10
    He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    Re 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    Re 15:3
    And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways,
    thou King of saints.
    Re 16:6
    For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
    Re 17:6
    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
    Re 18:24
    And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
    Re 19:8
    And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    Re 20:9
    And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured

    The bible does talk about saints in general terms however; it doesn't name any particular saint. The Catholic Church named all of the saints that we know of today getting the idea of sainthood from the bible.
  11. destinata7

    destinata7 Member

    May 8, 2004
    :smile: Harold, only a die-hard would take the time to copy and paste that many saint scriptures! You made me smile.....and I don't feel so good today.

    In regards to the subject "once saved, always saved", it just has the suspicious ring of "fate" to it, don't you think? If you truly can't "earn" your way, which I can definitely see a certain point here, then grace can't be earned either but must come from heaven above regardless of what you do or don't do.

    So then it boils down to the philosophy that God knows everything that you will ever do before you are even born and has pre-determined whether or not you will receive that grace or not? Some don't get Grace? Is God who is a God of love fair?

    Now just hold on a minute, doesn't the Bible say that you must call on the name of Jesus Christ to be saved? Is this "calling on the name" not an action or "work" in itself? If grace is fore-ordained, why do you need to do a single cotton-picking thing?

    Let me lay a few scriptures on you (my apologies to Harold I'm not trying to outscripture you):

    Matthew 24:13
    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    This is mentioned by Jesus on more than one occasion. Why would Jesus make this statement? Have you endured until the end? Isn't "enduring" also a type of work? Then I guess there is a real quandry here. Or is it that most people don't have a blinking clue what "being saved" really even means? Is it possible that there are different stages in the process of being saved? I believe so.

    Check out this scripture:

    Romans 8:24
    For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    So then let us use a scenerio here:

    You are in the water in the middle of the ocean with no life-jacket. You "call" for help. A boat hears you and turns your direction. However, you are not at this time technically "saved". You have hope that the grace of this boat that you never paid to come get you will pull you out of the water as a gesture of goodwill grace.

    Now, someone from the boat throws you a life-preserver on a rope and you get it around you. Are you saved? Things are looking good for you, but you are still in the water. The line could break, a shark could bite you, hypothermia could kick in.........you're still not techincally saved, are you?

    Now you are pulled onto the boat and taken back to the harbor and put your feet on dry land again. You are now saved from that ocean experience. You endured until the end of it, until you were no longer in that ocean. You are saved.

    One of the biggest misunderstandings in the churchworld today is that you don't have to do any works to be saved. Don't kid yourself. You definitely can't do it on works alone and do require the unearned grace of Christ to get you through, but don't sit back on your duff doing nothing for anyone waiting for the free ride of "once saved, always saved".....you will be extremely disappointed!
  12. bain-druie

    bain-druie Tree-Hugger!

    Aug 16, 2010
    Forgive me for cutting out the scripture, but those are always so tedious and regurgitated.

    Good bleeding grief, have I wandered into the christian forum by mistake? Oh ... no, this is Comparative Religion ... so I wonder why this is yet another Christian Verbosity Fest? o_O ........... OH! I know! It's because no one else is worried about this topic, since neither atheist nor pagan types [at least MY sort of pagan types] subscribe to fear-based theosophies. :eek: