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Looking for a source
- Thread starter rosends
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Hi, @rosends. I asked my rabbi your question, and here is what he emailed back to me. I don't know how much of this you already knew, but I hope you find something helpful in it. (My rabbi's words are in blue text):
Oy. It's not a simple answer, nor do I know all parts of it. I'm going to discuss only what pertains to one walking in while the q'dushah is being recited. There are plenty of discussions on what to say if one enters before the q'dushah started, see Shulhan Arukh Orah Hayyim 109, and it and the commentaries on it form what follows as well.
What I don't know: how many steps to take. I've never seen anything written on this specific question. Some synagogues used to make this impossible by closing the doors and making sure nobody enters. People either prayed and/or responded if they could hear, or waited. I don't see this much any more. Whether they should pray is a different question, and will be discussed.
There are a number of issues.
One cannot come within a certain distance of someone who is praying. I assume this is what is underlying the question. And, of course, there is an obligation to pray the q'dushah and it must have a minyan to say the expanded version.
My answer has always been that one should not come this late. But reality does not follow this. When it happens, if nobody is within sight, coming a step inside is sufficient. If there are others behind one, then one needs to enter in such a way as to allow the others to enter and still not be within the proscribed distance of someone who is praying or the people who enter later. Given that the back of the synagogue always fills up before the front in most synagogues, this is often really difficult if not impossible to do. Most people don't know this rule and come within someone's space. In fact, it is so important, that one cannot take the three steps backward at the end of the Amidah if one enters someone else's space who has not yet finished the Amidah.
It also depends upon where in the q'dushah the prayer leader is. One does not make up what one missed. This should be axiomatic as q'dushah requires a minyan, and one is praying without a minyan if one goes back to make up the missed parts, nor is one saying the current lines that should be said with the community if one goes back, and this is a problem. Moreover, there are opinions that say that one who is not the leader should not even say the introductory lines at all. This is not the current practice, though the sources do say that it is the preferred opinion, but that we just don't follow it. The q'dushah proper begins with the Biblical passage qadosh, qadosh, qadosh from Isaiah 6. My read of the sources is that one cannot make up what one has missed, and it is the overwhelming opinion of all the sources that I've ever seen. So one cannot make up the introduction ever, nor do I think one can make up any part of what one missed. Whether one should say anything will be discussed below.
Moreover, another issue is that the leader is each congregant's representative, and many sources say that if one did not start with the congregation, the leader cannot be one's representative. For example, the Mishnah B'rurah (MB), among many, holds this opinion. Based on this logic, modern authorities like Rabbis Auerbach and Elyashiv say that one does not say the q'dushah at all if one is late. The Hazon Ish says that one still says it because of the importance of q'dushah. I don't have the sources in front of me for these later opinions. The issue with the MB is that at one point he says that one can only participate if one is part of those being represented, which can be interpreted as referring to when the leader started,the repetition because how else does the leader know whom to represent!?. But the MB also says that everyone in the shul should be silent and pay attention. So one can go either way. But in no case do I think the sources support going back and making up what is missed. There is a general rule that what is missed is missed, although even it is not so simple.
There also is the issue of certain things one should do when the congregation does them even if one is not at that point in the service, with some limits, of course. For example, one should bow when the congregation bows.
Theoretically, all of this answer could change depending on the service. Shaharit, the morning service, has the rules of making Amidah connected immediately to Sh'ma and not allowing any interruption between g'ulah and t'phillah, the blessing of redemption and the Amidah. The possibilities of what to do when one enters late, but not this late, are well discussed in the sources. Minhah, the afternoon service, often runs into the problem of missing the proper time as most minyanim start close to sunset, so one should skip Ashrei and say Amidah and then go back and say Ashrei if this is a problem. And if it is too late to say the Amidah on time if one waits, then one has missed the ability to pray the service totally, and must make up the Amidah as a voluntary offering later. This basically is saying the Arvit, evening service, Amidah twice, keeping in mind that the second time is to "make up" for the missed Minhah one (it's in quotation marks because this technically is not how it works).. Arvit does not require Sh'ma and Amidah to be joined so the rules are different, but then it doesn't have a q'dushah, so the question is irrelevant as to q'dushah, though not to being late and making a decision on what to pray when.
As I started off by saying, it's not a simple answer.
Oy. It's not a simple answer, nor do I know all parts of it. I'm going to discuss only what pertains to one walking in while the q'dushah is being recited. There are plenty of discussions on what to say if one enters before the q'dushah started, see Shulhan Arukh Orah Hayyim 109, and it and the commentaries on it form what follows as well.
What I don't know: how many steps to take. I've never seen anything written on this specific question. Some synagogues used to make this impossible by closing the doors and making sure nobody enters. People either prayed and/or responded if they could hear, or waited. I don't see this much any more. Whether they should pray is a different question, and will be discussed.
There are a number of issues.
One cannot come within a certain distance of someone who is praying. I assume this is what is underlying the question. And, of course, there is an obligation to pray the q'dushah and it must have a minyan to say the expanded version.
My answer has always been that one should not come this late. But reality does not follow this. When it happens, if nobody is within sight, coming a step inside is sufficient. If there are others behind one, then one needs to enter in such a way as to allow the others to enter and still not be within the proscribed distance of someone who is praying or the people who enter later. Given that the back of the synagogue always fills up before the front in most synagogues, this is often really difficult if not impossible to do. Most people don't know this rule and come within someone's space. In fact, it is so important, that one cannot take the three steps backward at the end of the Amidah if one enters someone else's space who has not yet finished the Amidah.
It also depends upon where in the q'dushah the prayer leader is. One does not make up what one missed. This should be axiomatic as q'dushah requires a minyan, and one is praying without a minyan if one goes back to make up the missed parts, nor is one saying the current lines that should be said with the community if one goes back, and this is a problem. Moreover, there are opinions that say that one who is not the leader should not even say the introductory lines at all. This is not the current practice, though the sources do say that it is the preferred opinion, but that we just don't follow it. The q'dushah proper begins with the Biblical passage qadosh, qadosh, qadosh from Isaiah 6. My read of the sources is that one cannot make up what one has missed, and it is the overwhelming opinion of all the sources that I've ever seen. So one cannot make up the introduction ever, nor do I think one can make up any part of what one missed. Whether one should say anything will be discussed below.
Moreover, another issue is that the leader is each congregant's representative, and many sources say that if one did not start with the congregation, the leader cannot be one's representative. For example, the Mishnah B'rurah (MB), among many, holds this opinion. Based on this logic, modern authorities like Rabbis Auerbach and Elyashiv say that one does not say the q'dushah at all if one is late. The Hazon Ish says that one still says it because of the importance of q'dushah. I don't have the sources in front of me for these later opinions. The issue with the MB is that at one point he says that one can only participate if one is part of those being represented, which can be interpreted as referring to when the leader started,the repetition because how else does the leader know whom to represent!?. But the MB also says that everyone in the shul should be silent and pay attention. So one can go either way. But in no case do I think the sources support going back and making up what is missed. There is a general rule that what is missed is missed, although even it is not so simple.
There also is the issue of certain things one should do when the congregation does them even if one is not at that point in the service, with some limits, of course. For example, one should bow when the congregation bows.
Theoretically, all of this answer could change depending on the service. Shaharit, the morning service, has the rules of making Amidah connected immediately to Sh'ma and not allowing any interruption between g'ulah and t'phillah, the blessing of redemption and the Amidah. The possibilities of what to do when one enters late, but not this late, are well discussed in the sources. Minhah, the afternoon service, often runs into the problem of missing the proper time as most minyanim start close to sunset, so one should skip Ashrei and say Amidah and then go back and say Ashrei if this is a problem. And if it is too late to say the Amidah on time if one waits, then one has missed the ability to pray the service totally, and must make up the Amidah as a voluntary offering later. This basically is saying the Arvit, evening service, Amidah twice, keeping in mind that the second time is to "make up" for the missed Minhah one (it's in quotation marks because this technically is not how it works).. Arvit does not require Sh'ma and Amidah to be joined so the rules are different, but then it doesn't have a q'dushah, so the question is irrelevant as to q'dushah, though not to being late and making a decision on what to pray when.
As I started off by saying, it's not a simple answer.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Thank you for that -- I asked a rabbi friend of mine and he tried to give me an answer based on what "everybody knows" but I boxed him into a rhetorical corner with my follow up questions so he went to look for sources.
The issue arises because I see people walk in late and some go all the way to their seats while others stop almost immediately and some move to a bit beyond the entrance so as not to block anything. But in some shuls, one gets to the men's section by walking behind the women's section. If a man were to walk in and stop, he would be praying on the female side of the mechitzah which he cannot do, so I wondered how far he can walk during kedusha. (Women walking behind/praying behind men has different rules so I constructed my hypothetical as applying to men) The followup questions about what to say (catchup, jump in or nothing) just came from the general idea of coming in late.
One quick note about the info you presented -- in the kedusha on Shabbat, there is often a lot of singing which would give someone time to catch up without missing the chance to say anything else further in the kedusha so I don't know if that changes anything.
Yes, the easiest thing is to lock the door, but I haven't seen that since I was a kid.
The issue arises because I see people walk in late and some go all the way to their seats while others stop almost immediately and some move to a bit beyond the entrance so as not to block anything. But in some shuls, one gets to the men's section by walking behind the women's section. If a man were to walk in and stop, he would be praying on the female side of the mechitzah which he cannot do, so I wondered how far he can walk during kedusha. (Women walking behind/praying behind men has different rules so I constructed my hypothetical as applying to men) The followup questions about what to say (catchup, jump in or nothing) just came from the general idea of coming in late.
One quick note about the info you presented -- in the kedusha on Shabbat, there is often a lot of singing which would give someone time to catch up without missing the chance to say anything else further in the kedusha so I don't know if that changes anything.
Yes, the easiest thing is to lock the door, but I haven't seen that since I was a kid.
I passed along your comments to my rabbi, and he emailed this back to me. I figure you might also find this of interest. As before, my rabbi's words are in blue text below.
The issue that I didn't exactly address is what constitutes being near a person. The Sages rule that one cannot pass within 4 amot of a person praying the Amidah. Since an amah is the length of one's arm, figure around 6 1/2 feet. The issue is further complicated by the discussion in Sh A O H 102, mostly 1-2, about sitting near a person praying as this is considered to be the usual cause of disturbing a person. There are some who somewhat limit this to being only when one passes in front of the person. As long as one is not distracting someone, one can move within a 1/2 amah. There are some exceptions, but they don't apply in this case. There is some discussion that the rule of 4 amot specifically does not apply to someone who is standing in the aisle. Some even hold that someone who stands in an aisle waives the right to have someone pass within 4 feet precisely because they are standing in the aisle where it is assumed that people will pass. For some of this, you also need to read the commentaries in the back of the Sh A like Eshel Avraham.
Nearly everyone agrees that (1) one should try to follow the strictest opinion of 4 amot in all directions before relying on the leniencies; and (2) that the leniencies do not apply to someone walking in late, especially during the Amidah. The only reason why I qualify is that I can't claim to have read every source; but everyone I've read, and remember, holds that one should be strict and not rely on the leniencies unless one must. As I noted there are some exception, but they wouldn't apply to the Q'dushah. I should add that one who is infirm can ignore these because everyone knows that they are infirm and need the leniencies, but I assume that this is not part of the questioner's scenario.
As to the women's section, I've never run across a place where one must pass through the women's section. I've seen places where one may cross through the women's section to reach the men's. I have seen men purposely not enter the directly into the men's section because men were by the door who already had entered late, or were standing there to keep people from entering, and so they would pass through women's section in order to avoid them, and then pass in front of them.
There is some leniency, as the questioner pointed out, if one is in front of the women. There also is some leniency if one is behind, though I don't have the sources off the top of my head, depending on where they are seated and the distance away. I don't remember the exact details. There are some who say that men can even sit in the women's section and daven if there is only one, and in some circumstances, two women. I assume, though, that he is assuming that the women's section is reasonably full, in which case these leniencies wouldn't apply.
In any case, I've never read a source that lets someone walk to one's seat during the Amidah, which would certainly apply to the Q'dushah. Every source assumes that walking to one's seat would always interfere with the 4 amot rule. Unfortunately, people do it, and the one's who enter through the women's section to avoid the men by the door and go to their seats really bother me because there is no halakhic justification to allow it.
My personal assumption is that the people who do this to get to their seats either have not thought through the consequences of what they are doing, or they don't care because they just want to get to their seats. While one's seat, called a maqom qavu'a, is important, it does not override things. In fact, the codes allow that if a stranger is in one's set, especially after the service has started, but for many even before the service has started, one should not insist on sitting there as long as one is within, guess what, about 6 feet. Despite the Sh A O H 90:19, some hold that there is no such thing as a maqom qavu'a in a shul because the whole shul is designated as a prayer area, and maqom qavu'a follows from the idea of designating a prayer area. For a good discussion on this, see Arukh Ha-shulhan on the same citation.
The codes are clear that one cannot use halakhah to be rude to people. As one OU rabbi once quipped, if you really want to sit in a designated seat, make sure you show up before the service starts. And even if you ask someone to move, one must be polite. Obviously, this does not apply to this question as one cannot talk during the Q'dushah or even during the hazarah, the repetition. Of course one sees this last one violated regularly. Some ultra-Orthodox seem to think that the rules don't apply to those outside of their following, but I'm of the opinion that they apply to everyone.
Sorry, but I have some things to do and can't take the time to check sources, and this took a while to write. I at least gave enough for someone to be able to find the references, and references to the original sources.