Loki

[Jainarayan]

You missed some of the influences.

English is a composite, almost Creole language of the following;

Norse, Anglo-Saxon, Saxon, Frisian, Juttish, Flemish, Dutch, Celt-Latin, Norman-French and some Welsh.

There's probably even more, but that's the gist of it. That's why it's so damn hard for others to learn it. There is no "order" to it. German has rules that apply to all their words. In English, we've got light suggestions that we ignore whenever the mood strikes us.

Yeah, English is a mutt. Or more like tofu... it absorbs anything it comes in contact with. People also don't realize how much of English is influence even by Sanskrit and Hindi... candy, punch, bungalow, cummerbund, sugar, shampoo, and the list goes on, a legacy of the British in India. But when languages come in contact with each other, weird things happen.

 

[Riverwolf]

Gallic and Germanic are different. What I mean is I'm not sure if it is a Gallic (which is really Celtic) or Germanic substrate French was built on. Believe it or not, some linguists link Italic and Celtic into one sub-family, seems to be some strong evidence.

Yes, the common pronouns and words in most IE languages are very, very similar, if not identical. Tu is 2nd per. singular "you" in French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese; inflected versions of it are in Sanskrit (ta-, te-, tva-), Hindi and other Indo-Aryan languages; it's "du" in Germanic languages; thou in Middle English ("you" is 2nd per. pl., and polite). "You" is also cognate with vous, voi, vosotros, voce, (inflected) yu- in Sanskrit.

Geek Power!

Ha! That's even better. Even more reason to revive "thou" in its PROPER pronunciation of "thoo". ^_^

 

[Nietzsche]

But when languages come in contact with each other, weird things happen.

And even weirder things happen when it's left alone.

That isn't a sentence! That's what you chant to bring forth Yog-Sothoth into our realm!

 

[Jainarayan]

Oh my giddy aunt!

 

[Storm]

I know that Loki's real because he accepted my sacrifices and given back the requested gift. He's given to me for more than I deserve. No matter what "kind" of deity he is, I owe him my respect that he's more than a malicious god of chaos.

He's a wise magician who can change reality, even his own shape. He's also father of Narfi, Vali, Hel, Jormungand and Fenrir. In this way he's also breaker of worlds. "I wouldn't give my daughter for the world!" we hear all the time something to that effect. What we don't know is that Loki will actually take a step further. He'll destroy the world for his children. This shows Loki as being a mad god bent on vengeance for his children. Insanity can teach us a lot, but this is getting into some deep and kinda twisted stuff.

I've always been fond of Tricksters. They aren't easy to genuinely enrage, but once that's done, a wise witch bloody well keeps her head down.

So, as for Loki himself, well. I got no grudge, but I'm quite content to go entirely unnoticed.

 

[Nietzsche]

Can't remember if this has been mentioned yet, but Loki has no counterpart in the other Germanic or even Indo-European faiths. Which makes perfect sense for a trickster deity who can best be described as "the first internet troll" when he's in a bad mood. Of course he just pops in out of nowhere. That's just what Loki does.

 

[Jainarayan]

By Jove! You're right. There are some "forced" associations on the 'net, but they are just that... forced and tenuous at best. More like wishful thinking.

 

[Storm]

If you're interested, I can help. Send me a message if you need anything.

I'll make public request. Can you recommend translations of the Eddas, especially? I find that many, in trying to be true to the original forms, make themselves all but unreadable. (A problem not limited to Norse mythology.)

 

[Nietzsche]

I'll make public request. Can you recommend translations of the Eddas, especially? I find that many, in trying to be true to the original forms, make themselves all but unreadable. (A problem not limited to Norse mythology.)

To be honest, I find it best to grab two or three translations and mix & match if you're not able to read Old Norse.

..You know. I should consider doing my own translation..that'd take some time though. Hmm.

By Jove! You're right. There are some "forced" associations on the 'net, but they are just that... forced and tenuous at best. More like wishful thinking.

Myself and The Hammer think that he might be inspired by Native American contact, specifically with their Trickster Gods such as the Raven & Coyote.

 

[Storm]

It's not that difficult if you take the time to learn the languages.

Perhaps, but that's a far more difficult prospect for some than it is for others.

As an extreme lexical synaesthete, even my native (and only) language is altogether alien, and sometimes translation of the simplest things is impossible.

It's admittedly an extreme end of the spectrum, but from the very casual phrasing, I'd guess you're deeper into the other side than you quite realize.

 

[Storm]

Can't remember if this has been mentioned yet, but Loki has no counterpart in the other Germanic or even Indo-European faiths. Which makes perfect sense for a trickster deity who can best be described as "the first internet troll" when he's in a bad mood. Of course he just pops in out of nowhere. That's just what Loki does.

No, Prometheus is as close as it really gets.

But I find it interesting that in the Americas, where even the use of 'Gods' is highly questionable, Tricksters did much better. Everyone loves a good Coyote tale, and Raven? Raven stole the bloody SUN and got away clean, simply because Sky Chief was a jerk and he likes people (we're funny). Prometheus who?

Edit:

Myself and The Hammer think that he might be inspired by Native American contact, specifically with their Trickster Gods such as the Raven & Coyote.

Oh, how insightful! LOL

 

[Nietzsche]

Perhaps, but that's a far more difficult prospect for some than it is for others.

As an extreme lexical synaesthete, even my native (and only) language is altogether alien, and sometimes translation of the simplest things is impossible.

It's admittedly an extreme end of the spectrum, but from the very casual phrasing, I'd guess you're deeper into the other side than you quite realize.

Alright. Then I suggest picking up two or three translations and cross-referencing. You do not need to know the stories exactly, because it isn't meant to be literal, you only need to get the spirit of the tales.

 

[Storm]

Alright. Then I suggest picking up two or three translations and cross-referencing. You do not need to know the stories exactly, because it isn't meant to be literal, you only need to get the spirit of the tales.

True. It would help, though, if you know one with a good lyricism for my foundation.

What trips me up more than anything else is when translators sacrifice the poetic quality trying to be faithful to another language's means of creating it.

Does that make sense?

 

[Nietzsche]

True. It would help, though, if you know one with a good lyricism for my foundation.

What trips me up more than anything else is when translators sacrifice the poetic quality trying to be faithful to another language's means of creating it.

Does that make sense?

Indeed.

You like music? Because I've got some really good renditions by a few Metal bands that are in English and capture the stories very well.

 

[Jainarayan]

To be honest, I find it best to grab two or three translations and mix & match if you're not able to read Old Norse.

I have the Daily Asatru app that gives random verses every day from the Havamal and Voluspa. It has the Bellows and Bray translations. I switch back and forth when reading them to get a better idea of the verse. They can indeed be very different. I also have the hard copies of the Poetic Edda by those two translators, but I haven't read it yet.

Myself and The Hammer think that he might be inspired by Native American contact, specifically with their Trickster Gods such as the Raven & Coyote.

Or the other way around. Considering that Coyote is located more in the mid- and southwest of North America, that makes the similarities all the more remarkable. But otoh, it seems many cultures share ideas an mythologies in common. I think it's because people got around far more than we ever thought.

 

[Nietzsche]

Or the other way around. Considering that Coyote is located more in the mid- and southwest of North America, that makes the similarities all the more remarkable. But otoh, it seems many cultures share ideas an mythologies in common. I think it's because people got around far more than we ever thought.

My faveorite part of world mythology has a German name, because of course it does. It is known as the "Chaoskampf" or Chaos-struggle. The last battle between Order & Chaos, normally depicted as the Sky & Storm God against a Serpent.

Thor vs the Midgard Snake
Zeus vs Typhon
YHWH vs Leviathan
Susan-o vs the Orochi
Marduk vs Tiamat
Ra vs Apep

So on and so forth. You can find it everywhere.

 

[Jainarayan]

Thor vs the Midgard Snake

I'm just not happy about the outcome here. I wonder if Thor could use some help.

 

[Nietzsche]

I'm just not happy about the outcome here. I wonder if Thor could use some help.

Eh.

Thor slays the snake, takes nine steps and dies.
Odin is swallowed by Fenrir, before being slain himself by Vidar.
Loki & Heimdal slay one another.
Surtr lifts his flaming sword and casts Yggdrasil into cleansing fire.
But Yggdrasil will survive, the bark scorched and those within it protected, to start the cycle anew.

Not a perfect world, because Evil, Chaos, Rot & Entropy will survive, as the worm Nidhogg gnaws at the roots of Yggdrasil. The curtain will then raise again, some actors might be different, some lines changed, the tune somewhat altered, but it all still rhymes and it will happen again and again.

Eternal recurrence and all that.

 

[Jainarayan]

Yeah, I guess it's a total dookiestorm that reflects cycles and change... the 2nd generation of gods come into their own: Baldur, Magni (l. pic) and Modi (r. pic) with Mjolnir, et al. I think Magni and Modi are a chip off the old block... definitely their father's sons.

 

[Storm]

Indeed.

You like music? Because I've got some really good renditions by a few Metal bands that are in English and capture the stories very well.

That would be perfect, actually. I'm actually quite the music junkie, in small part because it somehow obliterates the barrier between language and my native thought process.

Assuming it's not just bad, of course. For metal, Savatage is just about my favorite band, but I'm good with most anyone who sings more than screams.