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Featured Logos is Dabar

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Teritos, Mar 4, 2021.

  1. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were created through the Word, and without the Word nothing was created that has been created.


    G3056 - logos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)
    a word, uttered by a living voice
    what someone has said
    the act of speaking, speech

    Psalms 33:6-9
    Through the Word of Yahweh were the heavens created, and all their host through the breath of his mouth. For he spoke, and it was.


    H1697 - dāḇār - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)
    speech, word, speaking

    Genesis 1:3
    And God spoke: Let there be light! And it was light.



    Isn't it obvious that the Word of God is the spoken word of God? Then what makes some think that the Word of God is another being besides God?
     
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  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Interesting fact -- in Gen 1:3, the Hebrew text does not use any word related to d-b-r. The word used for God's speaking there is "vayomer." This is from the a-m-r root meaning "say." The first use of the 3 letter root d-b-r related to speech is in Gen 8:15, when God speaks to Noach.
     
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  3. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    The vayomer is the dabar. The say(vayomer) is the word(dabar).

    And God said (vayomer):
    Let there be light. (dabar)
     
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  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    But vayomer (and he said) is an amirah (saying). A vayedaber (and he spoke) would be a "dibrah" or "dvar" - statement (cf Gen 12:17). Also, "word" is milah (cf Psalms 139:4).
     
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  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Did you come up with this idea while watching someone making a smoothie?
     
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  6. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    @rosends @dybmh
    God said(amar): Let there be light(dabar)

    If I speak, the spoken is the Word(dabar). That's easy to understand.
     
  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    But then you can pick any word that represents speech and claim it is identical. But the fact is, there are different words for different purposes. Simply equating them is an error. If you speak, the word is milah.
     
  8. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Why are you bringing confusion into this? The word dabar simply means "what someone says" and the Lexicon confirms this. That was the goal of my thread.
     
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Except that the W is capitalized in Word... what's up with that?
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I am presenting clarification, not confusion. You are confusing a saying said through an a-m-r verb with a statement made through a d-b-r root.

    In English, if I write, "Then the wizard incanted" would you then say that the incantation was the wizard's "statement"? Different words are used to make different points.
     
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  11. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    So you didn't want to debate, but inform? Then why put it in the debate thread?
     
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  12. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    So what?
    Word or word, doesn't make a difference. The definition of the word "word" is important.
     
  13. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    When I speak(amar) then what comes out of my mouth is a word(dabar). The dabar comes through the amar. The word comes through the speaking.

    Psalms 33:6-9
    Through the Word(dabar) of Yahweh were the heavens created, and all their host through the breath of his mouth. For he spoke(amar), and it was.

    Genesis 1:3
    And God spoke(amar): Let there be light!(dabar)
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The statement comes through the speaking. If you want to use the verse from Psalms then you need to stick with dvar's being the statement, not the word (milah).

    You also might want to check the Malbim there who says that the statements (d'var) are laws.
     
  15. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Spring!
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    Do you speak Hebrew? Maybe you should defer to the understanding of people who actually do when discussing the Hebrew text. That would be wise, right?
     
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  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Word with a capital W usually means that Word = God. That's why I asked. The word "word/logos" in a (Christian) religious has a double meaning. I think it's important to consider that, especially if the W is capitalized in a thread where John 1 is quoted in the OP.
     
  17. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    Isn't God his own word?
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    From God's perspective? No.
     
  19. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    Walter Kerr, the drama critic, is the first known user of the phrase “delusions of adequacy”. I salute your use of kinder, gentler descriptive language in your response while still managing to make your point.

    I aspire to that, but sometimes I have to confess I slip up and respond in a way that makes a needed point, but is more meanspirited. You know, something like “You should quit while you’re still behind.”
     
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  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Light is or, not davar.
     
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