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Live Brexit Deal Debate

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Given what's likely to happen to the UK itself with Scotland wanting to be part of the EU, I'm guessing that once breaking apart starts it will continue.
If this did happen, just as an aside, I would be perfectly happy to let Scotland become its own Nation State. It worked that way for centuries and I'm sure it can work again.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
If this did happen, just as an aside, I would be perfectly happy to let Scotland become its own Nation State. It worked that way for centuries and I'm sure it can work again.
I don't pretend to understand the political fault lines in Great Britain.
But if Brexit resulted in the dissolution, Scotland and Wales and England and Ireland becoming separate states, would the Brexit supporters still be in favor?
Really, I don't know. I am asking.
Tom
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't pretend to understand the political fault lines in Great Britain.
But if Brexit resulted in the dissolution, Scotland and Wales and England and Ireland becoming separate states, would the Brexit supporters still be in favor?
Really, I don't know. I am asking.
Tom
Of Brexit? Yes. Of dissolution? I don't know. Dissolution was on the table years before Brexit and Scotland had their independence referendum years before in September 2014.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Of Brexit? Yes. Of dissolution? I don't know.
But if it happens, and Ireland and Scotland Remain but England and Wales Brexit, there will be consequences.
Is that what the vote was about, and did the voters realize that?

Let me repeat, I don't know why Brexit passed. But it did. Everyone has to live with that.
But I am asking, did the voters, in toto, realize what they were voting for or against?

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight. If Britain loses economic clout in Europe and their EU advantage over the USA economically it's probably better for me, as a Usonian.
Have at.

I am just trying to understand why.
Tom
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
But if it happens, and Ireland and Scotland Remain but England and Wales Brexit, there will be consequences.
The EU has already said that if dissolution happens, Scotland &c. would have to reapply for membership to the EU.

Is that what the vote was about, and did the voters realize that?
That is not what the vote was about.

But I am asking, did the voters, in toto, realize what they were voting for or against?
Yes.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
So why is there a problem?
Don't get me wrong, I live in a country where we voted for Clinton, but got Trump. I understand the problems with systemic issues.

I think you answered your own question there. Popular votes don't always matter.

But if "we" Brits agreed to Brexit then there wouldn't be a problem. Now would there?

By the same logic if "we" Americans agreed to Clinton then she'd be the president, one would think...

The problem is that "we" Brits didn't agree.

Sorry, but this to me sounds like saying that since Trump is president, Clinton could not have won the popular vote.

Is it not possible for a government to oppose the will and agreement of the people?? Is such a thing inconceivable and without precedent??
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I think you answered your own question there. Popular votes don't always matter.
In this case, the popular vote did matter. The Leavers won and now the government is trying to fumble through Brexit, but the problem is the current government's position was Remain.That's how they campaigned.

Is it not possible for a government to oppose the will and agreement of the people?? Is such a thing inconceivable and without precedent??
We voted Leave and our problem is we have a PM who voted Remain. There is no wonder she is cocking up.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Like I said, I don't pretend to understand the nuances of what's going on.
I hope that your dissolution of the Union goes better than the one that happened here in the USA in the mid 19th century. It was unpleasant.
Tom
The EU is nothing but a banking union, Tom.
It must be dissolved because, bankers will turn it into a federal superstate that will make the single European countries' will irrelevant
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
In this case, the popular vote did matter. The Leavers won and now the government is trying to fumble through Brexit, but the problem is the current government's position was Remain.That's how they campaigned.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. Just because the popular vote was for leave doesn't mean the representatives wanted to leave and that leaving would happen.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
The EU has already said that if dissolution happens, Scotland &c. would have to reapply for membership to the EU.
That has nothing to do with my question.

If the EU agrees to let Ireland and Scotland reenter, provided they vote against a readjustment of the EU, favoring the English, would that possibly win?
In Ireland and Scotland?
I don't know.
Tom
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
If the EU agrees to let Ireland and Scotland reenter, provided they vote against a readjustment of the EU, favoring the English, would that possibly win?
In Ireland and Scotland?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Scotland and and Ireland could re-enter on their own terms, it would have nothing to do with England.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I'm sure the EU would let Scotland in with minimal fuss.
What about Ireland?
Really, I don't claim to have an opinion.
But I don't think the EU is going to give a better deal to Scotland without concessions than they give England.
Why would they? They have a great deal of leverage. Scotland doesn't want Brexit, if I understand correctly.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I'm not sure what you mean here. Scotland and and Ireland could re-enter on their own terms, it would have nothing to do with England.
I thought that the EU had to agree that Scotland and Ireland could reenter.
No?
They can force their way in, after GB voted for Brexit?
I don't pretend to understand European politics. Why would Germany and Spain and Italy just let Scotland back into The Union, when Britain is exiting?
I really don't understand this.
Tom
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
I thought that the EU had to agree that Scotland and Ireland could reenter.
No?
They can force their way in, after GB voted for Brexit?
I don't pretend to understand European politics. Why would Germany and Spain and Italy just let Scotland back into The Union, when Britain is exiting?
I really don't understand this.
Tom
  1. Britain as a whole would exit.
  2. Scotland would, hypothetically, devolve from the Union. It would not be an EU member as it is classed as a new Nation State.
  3. Scotland would have to apply to join the EU.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I think you answered your own question there. Popular votes don't always matter.
You know what we call countries that don't elect their top leaders?
Tyranny.
Maybe Oligarchy.
Not much difference.

By the same logic if "we" Americans agreed to Clinton then she'd be the president, one would think...
But the USA is not a Democracy. The Founding Fathers didn't want people unlike them voting. The liberal elitist politicians of the late 1700s got their way.
Sorry, but this to me sounds like saying that since Trump is president, Clinton could not have won the popular vote.
Uh no, Clinton obviously did win the American people's vote. The numbers are easily available on the internet.
Trump is president because the USA is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy.
This is easy to see, if you look at the facts.

Is it not possible for a government to oppose the will and agreement of the people?? Is such a thing inconceivable and without precedent??
Yes, the government opposing the will of The People is the historical norm.
It's called "aristocracy".
It's the USA. We don't elect our top leaders, they decide amongst themselves who to give power to.
Tom
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
What about Ireland?
Northern Ireland would need apply as well.
But I don't think the EU is going to give a better deal to Scotland without concessions than they give England.
England is not getting a deal. The UK is getting a deal. England will have to make a deal afresh with the EU in such a case if the others devolve. Each will be able to hammer out its own deal with the EU.
 
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