Literalism vs allegory

[Sand Dancer]

I have a Christian background, which often views God and the Bible in a literal fashion. As my interest in paganism grows, I would like to know how literal pagans, in general, view their deity/deities. How does one begin to believe in one pantheon or another? I never felt like I had a choice of religion before, so this is all new to me. Help!

 

[Nietzsche]

I have a Christian background, which often views God and the Bible in a literal fashion. As my interest in paganism grows, I would like to know how literal pagans, in general, view their deity/deities. How does one begin to believe in one pantheon or another? I never felt like I had a choice of religion before, so this is all new to me. Help!

How do you define literal & allegory? For instance, as a Norse Pagan I believe the Gods are real and that their relationship with us is entirely up to us. Odin cannot give a single less **** as to whether you believe or not. It's your actions that matter. I do not view them as natural forces that ancient people gave personalities too. I view them as being like us, with their own lives, responsibilities and faults. They're our family. We don't need them, they don't need us. You can live your entire life without them and lose nothing. It's a choice if you want to honour them.

And in regards to the Norse Gods, "honour" here isn't an alternative word for worship. You don't lower yourself for anything or anyone. You honour them on your own terms.

 

[allfoak]

Religion is something you do not something you believe.
Our purpose is to transform the material into the spiritual.
To transmute our physical bodies into spiritual bodies.

 

[Erebus]

I have a Christian background, which often views God and the Bible in a literal fashion. As my interest in paganism grows, I would like to know how literal pagans, in general, view their deity/deities. How does one begin to believe in one pantheon or another? I never felt like I had a choice of religion before, so this is all new to me. Help!

Depends entirely on the Pagan. There's no central organisation to determine how each Pagan should view their gods. In fact, I'd say there's something of an expectation that a Pagan should find their own way of viewing things.

Let's use Thor as an example. One Pagan might view Thor as an actual bearded man living in another world. Another might view Thor as being a force or natural phenomenon (such as thunder). Yet another will have no use for Thor and pay little attention to him. None of them are necessarily wrong in how they view Thor, what matters is whether or not their view of him is right for them as an individual.

 

[David1967]

Odin cannot give a single less **** as to whether you believe or not.

Odin sounds a lot like Crom in the old Conan stories. I wonder if Robert E. Howard had Odin in mind when he invented Crom?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have a Christian background, which often views God and the Bible in a literal fashion. As my interest in paganism grows, I would like to know how literal pagans, in general, view their deity/deities. How does one begin to believe in one pantheon or another? I never felt like I had a choice of religion before, so this is all new to me. Help!

I so wish I can give you a perspective that doesn't go too far out of the Pagan realm of seeing things. I see my ancestors and spirits as deities (or people I give reverence to); but I don't worship them (they aren't god/s). They are very real rather than allegory, and if I choose a pantheon for them it would be any indigenous faith with whom shamanism and like practices are affiliated (noting what @Quintessence said). They are literal (I'll focus on spirits) in that they interact with us on a physical not just a internal or experiential level. They are the intuitions we get and the gut feelings which some say come from psychology, but I believe the cause is spirit -ual as well. They (spirits/deities/the departed) are not who we bow down to but, as @Nietzsche says, "they're our family; You don't lower yourself for anything or anyone. You honour them on your own terms."

If I used word worship, it would be interchangeable with reverence not submission. Thereby the Spirits and the departed (relations or not) are deities.

As for specific pantheons, I don't hear many Pagans view their deities as beliefs either. Most I read here see them as very real and no belief is required for deities who they interact with on a daily basis.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Firstly, paganism is about orthopraxy rather than orthodoxy: doing the right thing, not believing the right thing. If you go over to the Hindu DIR, you will find them displaying a wide variety of beliefs and discussing them with a degree of understanding that you would not find between a fundamentalist protestant and a Catholic!

Secondly, one has to make a distinction between traditional paganism (whether with a continuous history like Hinduism, or restored like my Hellenism) and modern neopaganism (Wicca and its off-shoots). Many neopagans regard gods as Jungian archetypes, but I've never found a traditional religion that didn't consider them as real as you and I.

What gods do I consider to exist? All those who have been experienced by a reasonable number of people over a reasonable number of years: Zeus, Thor, Lugos, Anup, Nikkalu, Shiva, Chang'e, Amatsumara, Oshun, etc, etc!

How did I find my pantheon? Just a gut feeling. I grew up on Greek and Norse myths, and read the classical authors at school. The Greeks were what I was used to and they just seemed right when I suddenly realised I wasn't a Christian.

Sometimes the gods find you. I've just been reading an interview with a woman raised in Santeria, but who has been "adopted" by the Norse Loki. Tess Dawson was led to Canaanite religion by a visit from the goddess Asherah, of whom she'd never even heard.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not sure I have much to add beyond what has already been said by others here. Polytheistic gods are "literal" in that they are territory/reality, and "allegory" in that the narratives told about them are maps or mythopoetic renditions of that territory.

Honestly, I get confused by these sorts of questions. I don't understand how one "believes in" the gods, and it's as if folks have forgotten (or never learned) how to read mythic literature. You experience the gods, and practices follow, as well as wonderfully spun tales of them.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I so wish I can give you a perspective that doesn't go too far out of the Pagan realm of seeing things. I see my ancestors and spirits as deities (or people I give reverence to); but I don't worship them (they aren't god/s). They are very real rather than allegory, and if I choose a pantheon for them it would be any indigenous faith with whom shamanism and like practices are affiliated (noting what @Quintessence said). They are literal (I'll focus on spirits) in that they interact with us on a physical not just a internal or experiential level. They are the intuitions we get and the gut feelings which some say come from psychology, but I believe the cause is spirit -ual as well. They (spirits/deities/the departed) are not who we bow down to but, as @Nietzsche says, "they're our family; You don't lower yourself for anything or anyone. You honour them on your own terms."

If I used word worship, it would be interchangeable with reverence not submission. Thereby the Spirits and the departed (relations or not) are deities.

As for specific pantheons, I don't hear many Pagans view their deities as beliefs either. Most I read here see them as very real and no belief is required for deities who they interact with on a daily basis.

That makes sense. At least we know for sure that ancestors were real people. Thanks!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What religion view their god/s by belief other than certain parts of abrahamic religions?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Firstly, paganism is about orthopraxy rather than orthodoxy: doing the right thing, not believing the right thing. If you go over to the Hindu DIR, you will find them displaying a wide variety of beliefs and discussing them with a degree of understanding that you would not find between a fundamentalist protestant and a Catholic!

Secondly, one has to make a distinction between traditional paganism (whether with a continuous history like Hinduism, or restored like my Hellenism) and modern neopaganism (Wicca and its off-shoots). Many neopagans regard gods as Jungian archetypes, but I've never found a traditional religion that didn't consider them as real as you and I.

What gods do I consider to exist? All those who have been experienced by a reasonable number of people over a reasonable number of years: Zeus, Thor, Lugos, Anup, Nikkalu, Shiva, Chang'e, Amatsumara, Oshun, etc, etc!

How did I find my pantheon? Just a gut feeling. I grew up on Greek and Norse myths, and read the classical authors at school. The Greeks were what I was used to and they just seemed right when I suddenly realised I wasn't a Christian.

Sometimes the gods find you. I've just been reading an interview with a woman raised in Santeria, but who has been "adopted" by the Norse Loki. Tess Dawson was led to Canaanite religion by a visit from the goddess Asherah, of whom she'd never even heard.

I much prefer orthopraxy to orthodoxy. The fact that belief trumps actions is one thing that bewildered me about Christianity. You can be a total jerk, but if you're "saved," you'll go to heaven. I like the idea of archetypes. I never used to like Jung, but I do now. So do you think that Zeus, Thor, etc were real in the form of humans or gods?

 

[Sand Dancer]

What religion view their god/s by belief other than certain parts of abrahamic religions?

What do you mean?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That makes sense. At least we know for sure that ancestors were real people. Thanks!

Yep. Yep. They sure are. Not a pop phrase.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What do you mean?

Sorry. What other religions view their god/s existence by belief other than some abrahamic religions?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Yep. Yep. They sure are. Not a pop phrase.

Would that be considered reincarnation or just that they are absorbed into the spirit of the environment?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Sorry. What other religions view their god/s existence by belief other than some abrahamic religions?

As far as I know, none.

 

[Jainarayan]

So do you think that Zeus, Thor, etc were real in the form of humans or gods?

Anthropomorphic? No, I don't believe so. We ascribe human characteristics to the gods because of what Krishna says in Bhagavad Gītā 12.5 "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifest, the path of realization is full of tribulations. Worship of the unmanifest is exceedingly difficult for embodied beings."

Basically, the true nature of the gods is so far beyond our understanding we can only relate to them on our level. This of course, is my UPG.

 

[Jainarayan]

Replying to David1967, post: 4572182

Possibly. Óðinn has an awful lot on his plate to be concerned about, matters far beyond our day to day doings.

 

[Nietzsche]

Odin sounds a lot like Crom in the old Conan stories. I wonder if Robert E. Howard had Odin in mind when he invented Crom?

Probably. Howard was well-read in regards to mythology, and his world was meant to be the Earth during an earlier period(the Hyborian Age, or for Kull, the Thurian Age) though Cimmeria was meant to be a Celtic people rather than Norse. Though of course, there was a good deal of overlap during the later Celt & Nordic civilizations.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Would that be considered reincarnation or just that they are absorbed into the spirit of the environment?

I wouldnt call it reincarnation. For example, I have traits from my mother and father, then a generation back, and further back. Our traits, character, etc made up our spirit (not in full...X factor included)..so we are all a part of our family. Some say bloodline.

When you know your family, you know yourself: not just traits but the connection you share that makes you a part of that family.

Our ancestors (or family that we call ancestors after a certain set of generations passed) are no less family than my mother and father.

All spirits are part of pur environment as well as people. The environment I live at, the apt complex is owned by our Catholic Diosese. The priest that used to live here is burried on the property with his plack. Knowing that this part of the property I live and communing with the spirits (including his) on this property lets me know my environment more. Its not isolated like moving from one place to another every two years (which we did before I moved out)

The civil war was fought on parts of VA where I live. Angry spirits are here (I felt them) just by being in their territory. You can tell when peoples "spirits" are down or for stronger intuitive people, they even know why and what its connected to.

Ancestors is not just our family blood, its the spirits of the decesed that died on the soil we live on. They are in the things they owned and passed on to later generations.

If we have no family, our ancestors is also in us. Finding ourselves is the closest way you learn a out your past, present, and know your future.

Beautiful really.