Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Okay, provide the evidence that supports this statement that was contained in the post I was responding to: "I'm thinking the efficacy of modern medicine is dependent on faith in it".
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Link between faith and health
- Thread starter Jadamas
- Start date
Okay, provide the evidence that supports this statement that was contained in the post I was responding to: "I'm thinking the efficacy of modern medicine is dependent on faith in it".
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I find that of the hundreds of Bible laws, many have direct and indirect health benefits. Not drinking to excess, marriage and sexual fidelity, taking a Sabbath rest, etc. - hundreds of commands and precepts, have a health benefit. Jesus even gives great proscriptions to combat and end anxiety.
WalterTrull
Godfella
You're probably right. Although, in deference to @Windwalker 's popcorn getting cold, you seem to feel that science and faith are unrelated. I just thought I'd say they appear very closely related to me, one directing the other.
Well, I was hoping to be a spectator, not a participant. I wanted to hear further what he had to say in response, since I immediately picked up on the validity of what he was saying. I wanted to hear him expound on it further.
But, alas... I'll jump in and hopefully he will as well with better thoughts than my own. Here's what he said,
The evidence is psychology. If we believe something to be true, we actually co-create its reality for us. A simple example. Think about some terrifying thought. What effect does it have on you? Does it increase your heart rate, make your palms sweat, put a knot in your stomach? These are physiological responses to an idea, or a "belief". Mental stresses create physical problems across the spectrum. There is a clear connection between the mind and the body.
When we believe something is good for us, that belief energies the body towards its own self-healing. The placebo effect has been studied and there are clinic results that show improvements without the use of any outside chemical agents. It was a sugar pill, yet they showed improvement. This is evidence of the power of the mind and belief to effect positive results.
None of that is to suggest that it is all only just thoughts and beliefs. Obviously, if you slip someone a cyanide pill without their awareness, they will die and it has nothing to do with belief. No one is suggesting it's nothing but beliefs. But those who claim belief has no effect, are in essence arguing the mind has no effect, and that would be a problem since that contradicts the evidence.
It is well known by physicians that the "will to live", which is a mental belief, greatly affects the chances of recovery of a patient. Many surgeons will not perform surgery on a patient who is convinced they are going to die. The chances are much higher that they actually will, because that belief will suppress the natural healing of the body. So, on the other side of that, someone who has a strong faith they are going to get better, will have higher than average recovery times and successes.
So, Walter's comment above is correct, that the true efficacy has more to do with the faith of the person seeking it for healing, than what the treatment itself is doing. We look for outside agencies to take over for us, when in fact it is our faith right in there alongside whatever treatment that is, that is doing the work of healing. That is why folk medicines can be effective treatments.
We are holistic creatures, not just dumb mechanical machines. We have to engage the whole person, which includes their minds and beliefs and faith and will.
If with health you exclude the cognitive and mental part, then maybe.
Joking of course.
Ciao
- viole
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
If you look at the link in the 3rd post, you would find that you're wrong.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Science is ideological not conceptual when it comes to applications.
Science and Faith are completely unrelated with each other and for good reason which ought to be clear enough.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The thing is you don't need religion or faith to get the same effects of well being and stability.
You're still dealing in territory that has no basis upon which a sense of well-being rides upon. All you need is something to go wrong enough , expectations fail, and that entire sense of well-being goes down with it.
It's why faith can be so destructive when people wake up and see things for what they are.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't want to get into a long dissection of your beliefs in this thread, really, but can you elaborate on the connection between faith and science?
Regiomontanus
Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
How can I argue with me if we are going to agree??? Yes, the state of mind affects the body in physiological ways, because it produces changes in hormones,and other regulatory chemicals within the body. However, it does not follow that faith causes medicines to work. They are tested with double blind studies.
Faith may have an affect on the body, but not on the drugs.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
It is Walter's place to define how he is using the word.
Pudding
Well-Known Member
Faith
2. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
2.1 A particular religion.
Whether a faith might make a person more (good/better/longer) health depends on the quality of the faith's doctrines and how the person react their attitude towards it.
Good influence:
- believe in afterlife that they will meet with their deceased loved one, comfort them.
- postive thinking and healthy behaviour inside the religions' doctrines.
Bad influnence:
- believe their deceased/still-alive loved one will go to hell just because they join different/no religion, saddenning them.
- negative thinking and unhealthy behaviour inside the religions' doctrine. Eg reject medical treatment.
2. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
2.1 A particular religion.
Whether a faith might make a person more (good/better/longer) health depends on the quality of the faith's doctrines and how the person react their attitude towards it.
Good influence:
- believe in afterlife that they will meet with their deceased loved one, comfort them.
- postive thinking and healthy behaviour inside the religions' doctrines.
Bad influnence:
- believe their deceased/still-alive loved one will go to hell just because they join different/no religion, saddenning them.
- negative thinking and unhealthy behaviour inside the religions' doctrine. Eg reject medical treatment.
If faith has an effect on the body, it affects how the drug works in the body. The effects are affected by the mind. Faith and the drugs are both factors.
It appears Albert Einstein disagrees.
“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”
- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies
- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies
The experience of the mysterious, is what faith is. Faith gives rise to art, science, and religion, according the Einstein. I agree with him. We open to the great unknown, through faith. Science is what follows that.
WalterTrull
Godfella
I suppose my definition of faith is pivotal here. I tried to find a different word for a while, just like I tried to find a different word for God. I just end up back where I started. I am continuously drawn to the description of faith moving mountains. How can that be, unless the faith referenced is actually the motivating influence in a mental universe? In that case, we all use faith continuously. My every action requires this faith to perform. However, getting a handle on this faith proves a bit more daunting than would be supposed. For the most part, we use mental jigs to focus it. Some of the jigs are fairly simple (wearing shoes) some are quite complicated (modern medicine). Science is currently our go-to jig building source. Faith in A allows for faith in A+B, allows for faith in A+B+C, etc., etc. Eventually, we can build reasonably sophisticated and specific jigs. In the end, it is a focused faith that motivates. It is the mental substrate that provides the power.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Einstein doesn't strike me as a faith kind of guy. ;0)
I would put Einstein more in line with Carl Sagan for which to experience all the aforementioned simply don't need any faith requirement.
Just that amazing awe and wonder which paves the way for inspiration and seeking out and finding discoveries that answers our question and paves the way for new ones.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
There is bound to be one.
As per yogic science, emotional contentment helps to raise prana or chi levels, which is associated with better health.
Faith can bring about emotional contentment which can prevent leakages of vital energies.
Here I see faith different from beliefs in that beliefs are instilled by conditioning, while faith comes about with personal experience or experiential understanding.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Thanks, WT, Well, You are assuming that faith can move mountains. That has never been demonstrated to be possible. Anyone can write anything in a book. The act of writing something does not make it true.
I define faith as believing something without having sufficient evidence to do so. There is nothing that cannot be believed on faith alone if one is gullible enough. Alternatively, if you have sufficient evidence, then faith is not required. It gets muddled when "faith" and "belief" are used interchangeably. Faith can be characterized as belief, of course. But belief can also be founded upon evidence, so one has to make the distinction.
Your every action is not based upon faith. Some of your actions are undoubtedly based upon belief underpinned with knowledge of facts that have been demonstrated to be accurate. The only way it would be otherwise is if you know absolutely nothing and have virtually no remembrance of anything that has occurred during your entire lifetime. Science does not require faith. It requires knowledge. It is a systematic way (or collection of various ways) to examine the natural world.
I say all this not so much as a rebuttal, but to point out that there seems to be issues with your way of thinking about. these things. Nonetheless, it was interesting to see your thoughts fleshed out a bit.
WalterTrull
Godfella
Well... I am defining faith as what moves mountains. I guess for a little more immediate reference, I should say figurative mountains. Nonetheless mountains.
Again, it's a definition thing. Whatever is the direct motive for action, I define as faith. It is definitely a mental thing, whatever you'd like to call it.
I realize there are issues with my suggested paradigm, but I find them mostly to do with definition and terminology. I hate to fall back on "work in progress"; it seems so ineffectual, yet, unfortunately, descriptive.
I think religions have quite confused things. Conversations about faith and God become nearly impossible. Not totally impossible, mind you, just nearly. I appreciate this forum because we can disagree without condemning each other to fiery places.