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Life Everlasting or a Reasonable Facsimile.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by John D. Brey, Aug 19, 2022.

  1. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    In another thread, an interlocutor noted that before I could support my thesis that all human beings possess either everlasting life, or at least everlasting existence, I would first need to prove the existence, i.e., that there is such a thing, as everlasting life. This thread proposes to take up that challenge.



    John
     
    #1 John D. Brey, Aug 19, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
  2. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Good luck
     
  3. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    There's a saying that possession is nine-tenths of ownership. Similarly, ownership, or possession (not demonic) is nine-tenths of the requirement to perceive the reality of something not seen and acknowledged as a possession by everyone equally. Paradoxically, even those who don't know they possess it ---everlasting life, or at least everlasting existence ----do, whether they know, or believe it, or not. Getting them to perceive that fact is the trick.



    John
     
    #3 John D. Brey, Aug 19, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Ok.

    Use the first law of thermodynamics and you are on to a winner, use spirituality, after life, heaven, hell or woo then not so much
     
  5. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The primary difficulty in succeeding in this particular challenge relates to the pronounced irony at the crux of the paradox whereby something is self-evident, visible, and obvious, and yet unknown. When something is self-evident, and yet unknown, and or is disbelieved, we enter into a rather unique situation that requires incredible circumspection in order to pull back the veil hiding what's already in plain sight.

    If it's already in plain sight, then the perceiver who doesn't see it is something like blinded by the light. As Bishop Berkeley implied, the existence of some things are so obvious that the obviousness itself becomes something like the power to blind a person by the brightness of the observation of the obvious.

    This is that in spades. As someone once said, it's unlikely that fish discovered water even though it's obscene that someone else gets first dibs on that discovery. There are some here today who won't believe in everlasting existence until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom despite their having expired biologically well prior to that great and approaching day.



    John
     
    #5 John D. Brey, Aug 19, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2022
  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    So no proof then, but imagination and woo with out falsifiable evidence
     
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  7. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    An argument to prove that everlasting life exists, must revolve, naturally, around a definition of life, of which there are many, none of which is comprehensive, none of which genuinely circumscribes or adequately defines life as we know it. Nevertheless, the point of this study isn't to get into all the nuances and or definitions of life, but rather, to attempt to make a short, sound, argument in favor of the existence of everlasting life.

    All היה [being, existing] springs forth from הגה [to meditate or speak to oneself], all "to be" is founded on a thinking process. All "being" was conceived in thought before its development. Thought is the primeval origin of all; all "being" is thought translated into reality. With greater accuracy than the "cogito ergo sum" (I think therefore I am) the Jewish concept of language expresses the fact of the objectively realistic existence in "cogitor ergo sum" (thought, therefore I am), I am the object of thought, therefore I am. I "am" only so long as I am the object of thought. My existence is dependent on the conception of a Higher Being whose object of thought I am.

    Rabbi Samson R. Hirsch, Collected Writings VIII, p. 25.​

    Rabbi Hirsch's brilliant statement quoted above paraphrases if not grossly plagiarizes Bishop Berkeley who claimed we all, are, and live inside, God's thought. Berkeley and Rabbi Hirsch both focus on the duality between thought and material reality. They both imply the one, thought, is the source of the other, material reality:

    Our bodies as material objects inhabit the empirical world. However, there is a part of our selves which can initiate movements of our bodies at will, independently of the laws of physics (though not, of course, contrary to the laws of physics) and which must therefore be outside the empirical world. How it does it – what the relationship is between the willing me and the physical me – is a mystery that has baffled understanding since the beginning of human enquiry. But although I do not know what I am, I know that I cannot be only my body. I know myself to be a being that somehow combines the empirical and the non-empirical. In fact I am, so to speak, the embodied interface between the empirical and the non-empirical.

    Bryan Magee, Oxford Professor of Philosophy, Confessions of a Philosopher, p. 161.​

    Within the theological construct of life, as noted above, material reality comes out of immaterial thought, the particle is a manifestation of the immaterial wave, and is not, itself, as material and solid, as it appears. Furthermore, the immaterial laws of physics (which undergird the physical world) preexist the appearance of material solidity that comes from the immaterial laws of physics. At one point the material world, to include planet earth, had no solidity to it whatsoever: it was little more than immaterial laws, rules, awaiting their opportunity to condense and coalesce into the sarcophagus that is their material interface. We can speak of this material interface as a "sarcophagus" since nothing has a material face, persona, or interface, until it's descended at least six feet under its original entropic state of being. Being material, implies that what was originally immaterial, and perhaps immortal, or possessing everlasting dimensions, has now become mortal, material, physical, even biological, and therein subject to "death," whatever definition we choose to give to the word "death."



    John
     
    #7 John D. Brey, Aug 20, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
  8. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    1. Is there?
    2. If there is, it's wrong. Ownership is established by title. Otherwise, anyone renting a property could claim ownership.

    I suppose that must have made sense in your head. :confused:
     
  9. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    So your argument for "everlasting life" is that is it self-evident and blindingly obvious, but at the same time unknown and undetectable to most people. :tearsofjoy:

    Did they? Seems like a very odd thing to say, and even odder to repeat as if it made any sense.

    How would one differentiate such an experience from delusion or hallucination - both things that we know happen and can seem 100% real to the subject?
     
  10. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The intrinsic value of a title is like the intrinsic value of a piece of paper with a picture of Benjamin Franklin on it. Which is to point out that a bunch of writings and various legal images are often used by governments to imply that somethings whose true intrinsic value is almost nil, paper, should be owned and horded as though they were of immense value.

    As fate would have it, I'm currently aware of an actual case where a squatter is living in a home and the owner is trying to get him out by waving a piece of paper in the face of a person armed with a piece of metal with a blued barrel.

    Where government falsehood isn't taken too seriously as a determinant of genuine value, metal trumps, so to say, paper, on the scale of intrinsic value.

    Thank god our founding fathers and at least one recent President have noted that precedent. The intrinsic value of paper is about $100 a ton no matter whose picture or how many zero's you print on it and regardless of the gullibility of a democratic majority of citizens to the left of an IQ of fifty.



    John
     
    #10 John D. Brey, Aug 20, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2022
  11. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . You have to read it five times really fast. :D



    John
     
  12. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . And that I can prove it to a person with a reasonable scientific education.

    We have to rely on a shared sense of logic, reason, and science.



    John
     
  13. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    No idea what any of that ramble has to do with my point that there is no expression that you claimed, and if there was, it would be wrong.
     
  14. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    Well, you have failed so far.

    Surely this is supposed to be satire? :tearsofjoy:
     
  15. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Let's take your route. I predict it will be no more well-digested than mine.

    The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can't be created or destroyed in a closed-system (energy is a constant). Consequently, the second law states that in the same closed-system, where energy is a constant, entropy always rises with time (it always unwinds, and never ---in the aggregate, winds back up again). The third law says that energy can't reach thermodynamic equilibrium (where it's unwound, where it's not really very energetic anymore) in any finite number of steps. The third law implies that in a closed-system energy can never, will never, justify the second law's legal authority by winding all the way down.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the problems with the laws of thermodynamics (which Einstein said are the laws least likely to ever be overturned or re-written).

    1. Energy is a constant (more can't be created, and none can be destroyed).

    2. Energy always winds down, and never, in the aggregate, winds back up (though it might appear to reverse if in one locale of a closed-system rapidly rising entropy causes the appearance of a reversal --toward lowing entropy ---- in another locale: in the aggregate entropy never reverses and thus must eventually reach thermodynamic-equilibrium over time).

    3. In a closed-system energy can never, in a finite number of steps, unwind totally: can never reach thermodynamic-equilibrium.

    A. The universe has a pre-established and pre-set amount of energy set at a pre-determined or established level of entropy.

    B. It is unwinding as we speak (and cannot, ever, in the aggregate, wind back up).

    C. Though it can never reverse its course ---it's unwinding ---- it can never unwind totally without transcending finite mathematics so far as time, and unwinding are concerned.

    D. Einstein said time doesn't really exist. Space/mass/energy (where energy exists) is just a different manifestation of time, and time is just another manifestation of space/mass/energy.

    E. If time and space (and thus energy) are the same thing, or different manifestations of the same thing, then, Houston, we have a problem.

    Energy equals mass, times the speed of light squared. Einstein's equation, among other things, shows that energy, mass, time, and space, are interchangeable and are the same thing in truth such that when we understand this astounding truth, we realize that the laws of thermodynamics can be nothing but a set of laws establishing something more akin to a video game, an illusory matrix that only appears to have things like distinct mass, space, time, energy, though when viewed scientifically these things are the same thing: nothing but legal constructs established in the Mind of a divine video-gamer.

    To imply that this divine video-gamer/programmer can't give everlasting life to some of the players he creates, and suffer other to long-term suffering, is an idea based on a level of scientific acumen that's simply too low on the level of entropic unwinding to want to discuss seriously. To believe everlasting life doesn't, or can't exist (in parallel with E=MC2), is to totally ignore the meaning of Einstein's greatest equation and choose willingly to live instead in something truly little more, intellectually speaking, than a Sea-Monkey garden in a Mason Bottle.

    God will eventually grow bored watching Sea-Monkeys and has said, in the set of instruction he attached to the game, what he will do with, to them. Unless we have a body like Rachel Welsh, it won't be pretty.





    John
     
    #15 John D. Brey, Aug 21, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    But it can be changed.

    So the concept of the eventuql heat death of the universe cannot happen... Cool

    Which given recent hypothesis is quite possibly zero.

    Yes? And? That's entropy for ya.

    Do you have a reference for this?

    And whats all this unwinding, sounds like you are making terms up to suit confirmation bias. Entropy increases, it always increases, it does not unwind.
    .
    Time is just a convenient method of describing how one thing happens after another.

    Eh?

    No it doesn't the energy/matter equivalent formula is only interested in energy and matter. Time and space are not included

    Well you seem ro have made several incorrect guesses built on confirmation bias and come up with the result you wanted.
     
  17. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    No such thing as everlasting life no more or less than everlasting death.
     
  18. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Rising entropy is energy losing its ability to do work. Most physicists, attempting to explain this to laymen, use the analogy of a pre-wound spring unwinding without a mechanism to wind it back up.

    Except that Einstein makes it clear that there's no arrow or direction of time. That's part of the video-game designer's way of making us participate as though time is really moving one direction. The Bible beat Einstein to the punch by thousands of years. Moses talks to Jesus, and is hanging around at the time of the AntiChrist, since he, and Elijah, understood and believed in the symmetry of time so thoroughly that God was able to free them of the illusion of asymmetry so that they could join him in watching the Sea-Monkey's wiggle around, breed, and die.

    I've heard whispers that Moses and Elijah told God they find the Sea-Monkey terrarium about as exciting as watching paint dry, you know, like reading most of the screeds in this forum. And it should frighten the Monkey's to no end that God was scratching his head like he was thinking hard when Moses and Elijah said that.



    John
     
    #18 John D. Brey, Aug 21, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2022
  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Tell that to entropy.
    Yes time moves in on direction.

    And i am not really interested in the mythology. There is no evidence to back it up.
     
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