Liberty

[exchemist]

Europe isn't authoritarian - well most of it isn't

Indeed. Apart from Hungary and - increasingly - Poland, which have ruling parties of the, er, Right.

(The one in Poland goes by the acronym PiS, which always rather amuses me.)

 

[Left Coast]

It seems like in former years liberals valued freedom and liberty more than at present. When I was younger the more liberal-minded people were considered anti- establishment. I’m starting to notice that now a dramatic change; it’s those on the left that are very establishment leaning and appear to be all to ready to give up liberty.

What are your thoughts?


Ron Paul Liberty Report

Plenty of folks on the Left are anti-establishment. And I, as a person on the Left, am not ready to "give up liberty." The issue is that folks on the Right have been convinced that "liberty" means "small government" and "doing whatever I want no matter who else it affects." The Left, generally, rejects these oversimplifications.

 

[Altfish]

Indeed. Apart from Hungary and - increasingly - Poland, which have ruling parties of the, er, Right.

(The one in Poland goes by the acronym PiS, which always rather amuses me.)

It is also reckoned that the Polish demographics are changing and the younger people are rejecting the church and it is the church that back the government.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Left wing authoritarians are not liberal.

Yeah, they have state-sanctioned censorship of media in many European nations, too. Germany is bonkers with the censorship.

 

[Father Heathen]

So what are some examples of liberals spurning liberty?

 

[exchemist]

Yeah, they have state-sanctioned censorship of media in many European nations, too. Germany is bonkers with the censorship.

I agree it can be tough to be a neo-Nazi in modern Germany. But assuming you are not one of those, what is there to complain about?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I agree it can be tough to be a neo-Nazi in modern Germany. But assuming you are not one of those, what is there to complain about?

I can't even play many of my favorite video games in Germany. I'd probably get in trouble for the sunwheels I use as a symbol of my beliefs, too. Plenty of ways you can run afoul of their censorship without being a neo-Nazi.

 

[exchemist]

I can't even play many of my favorite video games in Germany. I'd probably get in trouble for the sunwheels I use as a symbol of my beliefs, too. Plenty of ways you can run afoul of their censorship without being a neo-Nazi.

What video games and why are they forbidden?

Do your sunwheels have swastikas on?

Give me an example of one other way you can run afoul of their censorship, that is not related to Nazism?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What video games and why are they forbidden?

Do your sunwheels have swastikas on?

Give me an example of one other way you can run afoul of their censorship, that is not related to Nazism?

Scroll down to "Germany": List of banned video games - Wikipedia

I own many of the games on that list. They were banned for "excessive violence".

You tell me. How are you defining a swastika? A swastika is just one variant of a sunwheel. I was banned from Facebook for posting a sunwheel that had nothing to do with Nazism or politics.

 

[exchemist]

Scroll down to "Germany": List of banned video games - Wikipedia

I own many of the games on that list. They were banned for "excessive violence".

You tell me. How are you defining a swastika? A swastika is just one variant of a sunwheel. I was banned from Facebook for posting a sunwheel that had nothing to do with Nazism or politics.

There is no ambiguity about what a swastika is. And there are very good reasons why Germany is tough on that.

As for violent video games being banned, the link you provided says it is the trading in them that is forbidden, not that you, as a private individual, can be arrested for possessing them.

And what about my request for an example of one of the many other ways you can run afoul of censorship?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There is no ambiguity about what a swastika is. And there are very good reasons why Germany is tough on that.

As for violent video games being banned, the link you provided says it is the trading in them that is forbidden, not that you, as a private individual, can be arrested for possessing them.

And what about my request for an example of one of the many other ways you can run afoul of censorship?

Dude, I'm not going to waste my time digging up a bunch of images of sunwheels so you can compare them. I'm on a phone and the browser page will refresh over and over, deleting what I've posted. I don't need that headache. The fact of the matter is that Germany's laws about the display of "swastikas" (which doesn't only cover the specifically Nazi variant of the swastika, which you see on the Nazi flag) are too strict and violate religious freedom. Sunwheels in general are very sacred symbols in Germanic Heathenry. It's like if the cross was banned for Christians. So that's one glaring problem, at least for me.

And you think it's acceptable that an adult can't buy a damn video game because of "violence"? I don't need the government making those decisions for me.

Those two examples will have to suffice. I'm not here to serve you.

 

[exchemist]

Dude, I'm not going to waste my time digging up a bunch of images of sunwheels so you can compare them. I'm on a phone and the browser page will refresh over and over, deleting what I've posted. I don't need that headache. The fact of the matter is that Germany's laws about the display of "swastikas" (which doesn't only cover the specifically Nazi variant of the swastika, which you see on the Nazi flag) are too strict and violate religious freedom. Sunwheels in general are very sacred symbols in Germanic Heathenry. It's like if the cross was banned for Christians. So that's one glaring problem, at least for me.

And you think it's acceptable that an adult can't buy a damn video game because of "violence"? I don't need the government making those decisions for me.

Those two examples will have to suffice. I'm not here to serve you.

Yes, I do think it is acceptable that government bans the sale of gratuitously violent video games. But then I don't enjoy gratuitous violence and, like the German government, I think people who do may sometimes become more violent themselves as a result of their habit. Nor do I think it unreasonable for Germany to outlaw swastikas, given their history.

As for "serving me", you made the claim, so it is for you to support it. Which evidently you can't. One might conclude that the claim is most likely false.

 

[pearl]

There is no ambiguity about what a swastika is. And there are very good reasons why Germany is tough on that.

But it does have an interesting history aside from Nazism.

The swastika has come to be feared and despised because of its association with the Nazis in World War II. Yet historically, the swastika was widely used as a religious symbol. To some ancient peoples, it was a pictograph of the sun revolving in the universe. American Indians used it to symbolize the workings of the winds and the waters. To the Norse, the swastika represented Thor's hammer. Early Christians used it as a disguised cross on tombs during the time when it was dangerous to display a Christian cross. Hindus use the swastika, considered a symbol of good fortune, to decorate doorways and books.


Cross - Myth Encyclopedia - Greek, god, story, legend, names, ancient, war, norse, world, Roman, represent

 

[epronovost]

Left wing authoritarians are not liberal.

There are no longer any left win authoritarian nations in Europe since the fall of the communist block. All the current authoritarian nation of Europe (Hungary, Poland, Russia, Romania, Belarusse,etc) are all Right wing on the political spectrum with a heavy Christian overtone.

PS: you could add Turkey to the list too

 

[Yerda]

If you look closely, you'll notice a lot of the language used by the left is straight from European playbooks. What I think tends to happen is that European opinionators make known their stance, and then the American left, being very fond of everything European, simply pick it up and run with it as if it were the word of God.

...For instance, calling Trump "authoritarian" is totally European rooted, because in Europe, right wing means more government control, where as in America, right wing means less government -- It's the total opposite. So what we have is misinformation being fed to the American left, and they just run with it anyways, not even caring that it makes no logical sense... Realistically, the left is far more in line with Authoritarianism in the United States based on their desire for restrictions on speech, and governmental overreach in general.


Other examples include the use of the word "nationalist". A term that makes no sense In the United States, but makes total sense in Europe where many tiny countries live interdependently with each other... In Europe, nationalism is an actual problem, because small countries rely on one another for resources, but here in America, it really makes no sense.

These are just two examples of European influence/control of the American left.

Have you any examples of these things?

 

[Cooky]

I agree it can be tough to be a neo-Nazi in modern Germany. But assuming you are not one of those, what is there to complain about?

it's illegal to spit on the ground in parts of Europe (and in some left wing cities in America). It's authoritarianism.

Should spitting in the street be banned?
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[epronovost]

Not quite accurate about Ron Paul’s stance on gay marriage...


“Q: In Dec. 2007, you were asked if gays should be allowed to marry. You said, "Sure; they can do whatever they want and can call it whatever they want." Are you advocating legalizing gay marriage?

A: As a matter of fact, I spent a whole chapter in my new book on marriage. And I think it's very important seeing that I've been married for 54 years now. I think the government should just be out of it. I think it should be done by the church as a private contract and we shouldn't have this argument of who's married and who isn't married. I have my standards but I shouldn't impose my standards on others. Others have their standards and they have no right to impose their marriage standards on me. But if we want to have something to say about marriage, it should be at the state level and not at the federal level. Just get the government out of it. It's one area where it's totally unnecessary, and they've caused more trouble than necessary.”


Ron Paul on Civil Rights

That, in effect would deprive gays from getting married. It's a distinction without a difference.

 

[Cooky]

Have you any examples of these things?

The second and third paragraphs were the examples.

 

[epronovost]

it's illegal to spit on the ground in parts of Europe.

It's illegal to spit on the ground in many municipalities all around The US. Originally it was designed to prevent the spread of diseases and avoid brawls.

 

[Cooky]

It's illegal to spit on the ground in many municipalities all around The US. Originally it was designed to prevent the spread of diseases and avoid brawls.

It's authoritarianism to pass a law that makes it illegal to spit.