Libertarian Feminism

[ADigitalArtist]

The "Libertarian Only" forum allows those who identify as a "left libertarian",
so it appears to be rule compliant to allow a definitive prefix. If the goals are
shared, & it's about discussion rather than objection, this has been treated by
staff as compliant....so long as one behaves oneself within the restricted forum.

That's fine, left libertarian is still libertarian. Egalitarian isn't feminism. It was specifically made for and by people who object to the feminist label.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, we have a diversity of opinion because when we are asked to sacrifice for the sake of equal freedom, equal justice, and equal opportunity for all, we suddenly decide that we like the "every-man-for-himself" model for living, better. But then we have to invent some sort of justification for our new-found selfishness, so equal freedom becomes "enabling immorality", equal justice becomes "coddling criminals", and equal opportunity becomes "unfair affirmative action", and so on. And our selfishness then becomes lost in a sea of "different opinions". Just as we'd hoped it would.

I'm not asking anyone for sacrifice here.
I see a win-win scenario.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's fine, left libertarian is still libertarian. Egalitarian isn't feminism. It was specifically made for and by people who object to the feminist label.

I've seen many feminists identify as "egalitarian" too.

We all have a choice.....
1) Identify the opposition, eg, MRA, egalitarian, & oppose them.
2) Find common ground, & pursue common goals with others.

If one supports feminism (of one type or another), & one complies
with the spirit & the rules of the forum, I lean in the direction of inclusion.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I urge all in this forum to avoid insulting terminology like "SJW", "neckbeard", "feminazi", etc.

Message received.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I've seen many feminists identify as "egalitarian" too.

We all have a choice.....
1) Identify the opposition, eg, MRA, egalitarian, & oppose them.
2) Find common ground, & pursue common goals with others.

If one supports feminism (of one type or another), & one complies
with the spirit & the rules of the forum, I lean in the direction of inclusion.

And I've seen egalitarians identify as both feminist and MRA, and they woudnt be allowed to post here either, just like how we've had to draw the line with some syncretic beliefs in the DIR.
Inclusion is great, in forums that are meant for varied cross discussion. We have lots of them. This isn't one.

 

[Revoltingest]

And I've seen egalitarians identify as both feminist and MRA, and they woudnt be allowed to post here either, just like how we've had to draw the line with some syncretic beliefs in the DIR.
Inclusion is great, in forums that are meant for varied cross discussion. We have lots of them. This isn't one.

Addressing you as a fellow poster, & fan of gender (& other) equality...not as staff,
I've some questions to clarify my understanding of your views.....
1) Do you oppose including feminists who also identify as "egalitarian" or as "MRA"?
I don't see them as mutually exclusive. One can have more than one focus in one's advocacy.
2) Do you oppose "libertarian feminist" inclusion because there's a prefix?
3) If so on #2, would you advocate this as a general standard, ie, no
qualifying prefixes, to other restricted forums?

Note:
Careful wording above is designed to keep this thread in the arena of member discussion.
I don't want it to be a debate about rules & moderation, which doesn't belong here.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Addressing you as a fellow poster, & fan of gender (& other) equality...not as staff,
I've some questions to clarify my understanding of your views.....
1) Do you oppose including feminists who also identify as "egalitarian"?
2) Do you oppose "libertarian feminist" inclusion because there's a prefix?
3) If so on #2, would you advocate this as a general standard, ie, no
qualifying prefixes, to other restricted forums?

Note:
Careful wording above is designed to keep this thread in the arena of member discussion.
I don't want it to be a debate about rules & moderation, which doesn't belong here.

I'm probably going to disappoint you but I'm going to decline to answer the question as asked. In a perfect world I could answer that sort of question without it coming up in a moderation dispute, but we are far from a perfect world.
I think where the line between sincere identity and pushing the rule should be discussed by moderators on a case by case basis. But I would flag someone who identifies as libertarian eagaitrian feminist with a history of criticising feminism for review.

 

[Father Heathen]

Who doesn't believe in individual freedom and equality? This is not what defines a libertarian. What defines a libertarian is a blinding adherence to the ideological pipe-dream that we humans would naturally practice such freedom and equality without the force of law. As they are basically anarchists hiding themselves from the chaos and destruction of anarchy via the fantasm of blind idealism.

Wrong, a libertarian by definition is merely someone who is fiscally conservative and socially liberal. That's all. Such a stance obviously doesn't require a total lack of government nor the privatization of everything. Sure, some libertarians believe as you've described, but not all, and it definitely doesn't define the term itself.

What you've done is the equivalent of calling anyone left of center "communists", or anyone right of center "fascists".

 

[Father Heathen]

Egalitarian isn't feminism.

Could you elaborate?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Could you elaborate?

If we're going to discuss it we should probably do so outside the feminist only section.

 

[PureX]

I'm not asking anyone for sacrifice here.
I see a win-win scenario.

We all have to sacrifice for equal freedom, justice, and opportunity. That's just the way it is when people live together in a free and equitable society. My freedom to do as I please has to stop when it infringes upon your right not to have to accommodate my desires.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm probably going to disappoint you but I'm going to decline to answer the question as asked. In a perfect world I could answer that sort of question without it coming up in a moderation dispute, but we are far from a perfect world.
I think where the line between sincere identity and pushing the rule should be discussed by moderators on a case by case basis. But I would flag someone who identifies as libertarian eagaitrian feminist with a history of criticising feminism for review.

Sounds murky.

 

[Revoltingest]

We all have to sacrifice for equal freedom, justice, and opportunity. That's just the way it is when people live together in a free and equitable society. My freedom to do as I please has to stop when it infringes upon your right not to have to accommodate my desires.

I don't see that as a sacrifice....just minding your own business.
Think of the old libertarian maxim....
My right to swing my arms ends where your nose begins.
Tis no sacrifice for me to avoid harming others.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Sounds murky.

DIR moderation in a nutshell.

 

[Revoltingest]

If we're going to discuss it we should probably do so outside the feminist only section.

Since egalitarianism & feminism intersect, it should be possible to discuss their relationship here.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Since egalitarianism & feminism intersect, it should be possible to discuss their relationship here.

Not unless the user identifies as a feminist, which is what I was getting at.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not unless the user identifies as a feminist, which is what I was getting at.

Aha.

 

[Meow Mix]

Message received.

Guilty as well, my bad

 

[PureX]

I don't see that as a sacrifice....just minding your own business.

You can see it however you like, but the fact remains that I can't be free to do as I please and still respect the equal rights of those around me. I have to sacrifice some degree of my liberty to accommodate their right to be free of me. A free and equal society requires sacrifice. And everyone claims they believe in a free and equal society until that society demands that they sacrifice for the sake of the rights of their fellow citizens. Then they suddenly want everyone else to accommodate their liberty, without doing the same in return. And they hide this selfishness behind some imagined superior righteousness. They think everyone else should accommodate them because they are right and everyone else is wrong, and therefor should be forced to comply. Self-righteousness becomes the excuse for their desire to ignore and abuse the rights and freedom of everyone else.

Think of the old libertarian maxim.... My right to swing my arms ends where your nose begins.
Tis no sacrifice for me to avoid harming others.

It's easy to sacrifice something you didn't want to begin with. Anyone can do that.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If someone were to ask you if you identified as a feminist and you said yes without equivocation or deferment to another term then it's fine. If no, then probably not.

This. Anything short of full-blown embracement of identifying as a feminist with no caveats or deferment to other labels essentially means a person shouldn't post in the feminist-only section.