Libertarian Feminism

[Revoltingest]

There are so very many flavors of feminism.
Are those of us in this tiny corner considered part of it?
Or should we steer clear of this forum?

Ref....
How is Libertarian Feminism Different from Other Feminisms?

An excerpt....
Libertarian feminists believe, as other feminists do, that women and men should have equal liberty. “Feminism has at its heart the demand that women be treated as free human beings,” writes feminist political scientist Drucilla Cornell—a belief with which libertarian feminists completely concur. Our belief in equal liberty, like other libertarians, is based on the idea of individual rights and the equal freedom of all. Like other feminists, we reject gender role stereotypes that limit women’s and men’s psychological autonomy to be what they individually choose to be. Like other feminists, we agree that both women and men have been harmed by these stereotypes. It is our belief in individualism that leads us to reject the notion of gender role stereotypes or any other stereotype that limits individual choice. This includes racial, ethnic, and sexual stereotypes as well as other stereotypes of people in groups. Bigotry is a violation of the precepts of individualism. On a personal and psychological level as well, we believe in the autonomy of the individual and the right of each individual to make choices about her/his life as they see fit. As noted in my prior essay here, on this issue, we follow in the philosophical footsteps of the individualist feminists who have come before us.

 

[Laika]

Or should we steer clear of this forum?

It would be fair to say that Libertarian Feminists are entitled to use the Feminist Only sub-forum. That is does create a pressure cooker when debating what kind of equality Feminists want to achieve: equality before the law/equality of opportunity or socio-economic equality/equality of outcome. The struggle between them as left-wing and right-wing variants is however easily part of the sub-forum definition:

Feminist: Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

 

[PureX]

There are so very many flavors of feminism.
Are those of us in this tiny corner considered part of it?
Or should we steer clear of this forum?

Ref....
How is Libertarian Feminism Different from Other Feminisms?

An excerpt....
Libertarian feminists believe, as other feminists do, that women and men should have equal liberty. “Feminism has at its heart the demand that women be treated as free human beings,” writes feminist political scientist Drucilla Cornell—a belief with which libertarian feminists completely concur. Our belief in equal liberty, like other libertarians, is based on the idea of individual rights and the equal freedom of all. Like other feminists, we reject gender role stereotypes that limit women’s and men’s psychological autonomy to be what they individually choose to be. Like other feminists, we agree that both women and men have been harmed by these stereotypes. It is our belief in individualism that leads us to reject the notion of gender role stereotypes or any other stereotype that limits individual choice. This includes racial, ethnic, and sexual stereotypes as well as other stereotypes of people in groups. Bigotry is a violation of the precepts of individualism. On a personal and psychological level as well, we believe in the autonomy of the individual and the right of each individual to make choices about her/his life as they see fit. As noted in my prior essay here, on this issue, we follow in the philosophical footsteps of the individualist feminists who have come before us.

Who doesn't believe in individual freedom and equality? This is not what defines a libertarian. What defines a libertarian is a blinding adherence to the ideological pipe-dream that we humans would naturally practice such freedom and equality without the force of law. As they are basically anarchists hiding themselves from the chaos and destruction of anarchy via the fantasm of blind idealism.

 

[Revoltingest]

Who doesn't believe in individual freedom and equality?

A great many do not.
Some people believe in disparate treatment under the law, in a place of worship, & in society.

This is not what defines a libertarian.

I agree....it is just one aspect of being a libertarian.

What defines a libertarian is a blinding adherence....

"blinding"?
Oh, dear.

..... to the ideological pipe-dream that we humans would naturally practice such freedom and equality without the force of law. As they are basically anarchists hiding themselves from the chaos and destruction of anarchy via the fantasm of blind idealism.

It seems that you vigorously disagree with our ideals.
(And that you really like the word, "blind".)
This isn't the appropriate thread to debate your objections.
It's about libertarian feminism supporters belonging here...or not.

 

[Revoltingest]

It would be fair to say that Libertarian Feminists are entitled to use the Feminist Only sub-forum. That is does create a pressure cooker when debating what kind of equality Feminists want to achieve: equality before the law/equality of opportunity or socio-economic equality/equality of outcome. The struggle between them as left-wing and right-wing variants is however easily part of the sub-forum definition:

Feminist: Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

In feminism, as in politics, we're the red headed step children.
But ours is a perspective which could be useful to others.

 

[Kapalika]

Who doesn't believe in individual freedom and equality?

A surprisingly large number, actually.

 

[YmirGF]

Why can't a librarian be a feminist? Jeez, Louise.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why can't a librarian be a feminist? Jeez, Louise.

Btw, I'm pro-librarian.

And for your enjoyment....

 

[Debater Slayer]

There are so very many flavors of feminism.
Are those of us in this tiny corner considered part of it?
Or should we steer clear of this forum?

Ref....
How is Libertarian Feminism Different from Other Feminisms?

An excerpt....
Libertarian feminists believe, as other feminists do, that women and men should have equal liberty. “Feminism has at its heart the demand that women be treated as free human beings,” writes feminist political scientist Drucilla Cornell—a belief with which libertarian feminists completely concur. Our belief in equal liberty, like other libertarians, is based on the idea of individual rights and the equal freedom of all. Like other feminists, we reject gender role stereotypes that limit women’s and men’s psychological autonomy to be what they individually choose to be. Like other feminists, we agree that both women and men have been harmed by these stereotypes. It is our belief in individualism that leads us to reject the notion of gender role stereotypes or any other stereotype that limits individual choice. This includes racial, ethnic, and sexual stereotypes as well as other stereotypes of people in groups. Bigotry is a violation of the precepts of individualism. On a personal and psychological level as well, we believe in the autonomy of the individual and the right of each individual to make choices about her/his life as they see fit. As noted in my prior essay here, on this issue, we follow in the philosophical footsteps of the individualist feminists who have come before us.

Feel free to redirect your question to Site Feedback, since it touches on the forum rules and belongs there as a result.

On a relevant note, members who use terms such as "SJW" in a negative manner anywhere on the forums are disqualified from posting in the feminist-only section per this rule:

New Rule for the Feminist-Only Section

This includes members who self-identify as libertarian feminists or any other kinds of feminists. The rule generally doesn't exclude people based on other factors.

 

[Revoltingest]

Feel free to redirect your question to Site Feedback, since it touches on the forum rules and belongs there as a result.

On a relevant note, members who use terms such as "SJW" in a negative manner anywhere on the forums are disqualified from posting in the feminist-only section per this rule:

New Rule for the Feminist-Only Section

This includes members who self-identify as libertarian feminists or any other kinds of feminists. The rule generally doesn't exclude people based on other factors.

Have you a problem with my thread, such as using offensive terminology?
Your warning seems a non sequitur, since all here are being civil & engaging.

I see no rule violation.
My expressed concern is what interested posters here think of this kind of feminism belonging.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Have you a problem with my thread, such as using offensive terminology?
I see no rule violation.
My concern is what interested posters here think.

Your warning seems a non sequitur, since all here are being civil & engaging.

It's not intended as a warning; it's just to clarify one of the guidelines for posting in this forum section, since the OP asks a question that touches on those.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not intended as a warning; it's just to clarify one of the guidelines for posting in this forum section, since the OP asks a question that touches on those.

The clarification seemed tailored (singling out libertarian feminists, but no others).
I was already familiar with Rival's sticky thread.

I urge all in this forum to avoid insulting terminology like "SJW", "neckbeard", "feminazi", etc.

 

[PureX]

Lots and lots, everybody even.
That's because, while high minded, the words aren't at all simple and unambiguous. There is "freedom from things" and "freedom to do things". There is "equality of opportunity "and" equality of outcome ".

These are very different things and as a result of these various meanings (in combination especially) people have dramatically different views of what freedom and equality look like. Even very well intentioned and informed people can disagree hugely.
Tom
ETA ~If my post qualifies as a rule infraction @Debater Slayer , feel free to delete the offensive thing~

I understand all this. But my comment was referring to the fact that nearly everyone thinks they believe in freedom and equality. And they do believe in it until they have to sacrifice something to maintain it. Then they suddenly become fascists, and plutocrats, and self-appointed dictators.

 

[Kapalika]

I understand all this. But my comment was referring to the fact that nearly everyone thinks they believe in freedom and equality. And they do believe in it until they have to sacrifice something to maintain it. Then they suddenly become fascists, and plutocrats, and self-appointed dictators.

Uh... many Christians think they deserve rights that other religions don't, and openly so. Many people too already are literal fascists even in western countries (enough to organize huge rallies). And of course there are countless supporters of inequal regimes.

It's only in "mainstream" society of America and Europe that people think they believe in it, and then your statement is (mostly) true.

Not trying to debate, I just get this sense you're mostly seeing in your own personal world around you, not the world as a whole.

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand all this. But my comment was referring to the fact that nearly everyone thinks they believe in freedom and equality. And they do believe in it until they have to sacrifice something to maintain it. Then they suddenly become fascists, and plutocrats, and self-appointed dictators.

There are different definitions of, & approaches to, freedom & equality.
Is freedom the lack of restriction, or is it to provided enabling benefits?
Is equality defined by outcome, or by opportunity?
This is why we have diversity of opinion.

 

[PureX]

You mean like BLM and f*min*zis too? Or are you referring to libertarian/ egalitarian types?
Tom

I'm referring to human nature. It's easy to be generous when we aren't actually being asked to give anything up.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

ETA ~If my post qualifies as a rule infraction @Debater Slayer , feel free to delete the offensive thing~

If someone were to ask you if you identified as a feminist and you said yes without equivocation or deferment to another term then it's fine. If no, then probably not.

 

[columbus]

If someone were to ask you if you identified as a feminist and you said yes without equivocation or deferment to another term then it's fine. If no, then probably not.

I took your advice.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

If someone were to ask you if you identified as a feminist and you said yes without equivocation or deferment to another term then it's fine. If no, then probably not.

The "Libertarian Only" forum allows those who identify as a "left libertarian",
so it appears to be rule compliant to allow a definitive prefix. If the goals are
shared, & it's about discussion rather than objection, this has been treated by
staff as compliant....so long as one behaves oneself within the restricted forum.

 

[PureX]

There are different definitions of, & approaches to, freedom & equality.
Is freedom the lack of restriction, or is it to provided enabling benefits?
Is equality defined by outcome, or by opportunity?
This is why we have diversity of opinion.

No, we have a diversity of opinion because when we are asked to sacrifice for the sake of equal freedom, equal justice, and equal opportunity for all, we suddenly decide that we like the "every-man-for-himself" model for living, better. But then we have to invent some sort of justification for our new-found selfishness, so equal freedom becomes "enabling immorality", equal justice becomes "coddling criminals", and equal opportunity becomes "unfair affirmative action", and so on. And our selfishness then becomes lost in a sea of "different opinions". Just as we'd hoped it would.