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Liberals Only: The Future of Liberalism?

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As you may have noticed, liberalism is having something of a “rough patch” right now. It is being challenged by various forms of authoritarian populism around the world, on both the right wing and left wing sides of the political spectrum.

Whatever can be said about liberalism in the present, it has clearly achieved a great deal historically and there are dangers that this current tide of authoritarianism unravels many of the freedoms we take for granted and undermines equality by punishing various minority groups.

What do you believe is the source of this authoritarian populism? What are the best approaches in opposing it?

What do you believe the future holds for liberals such as yourself and liberalism in general?

What do you believe someone can do to help liberals protect freedom and equality for future generations? (This can be offline or online or anything you like)

Many conservatives and those on the far right and the far left also use liberal and liberalism as a slur or in a derogatory way:

Where do you feel this denigration is unjustified? Are there any areas where you believe criticism may be justified?

And are there any things that really irritate you when someone talks about liberals and liberalism?

This thread is in the Liberal Only sub forum. If you are not a Liberal, either do not reply here or keep it respectful and positive when doing so.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Arrogance is always my prime suspect to explain human misbehavior. Arrogant behavior satisfies the unconscious need to feel superior to others.

We humans are making moral progress, we are treating each other better right now than at any time in our history. That means that our most arrogant brothers and sisters are losing the social battles and they don't like it.

For example, liberals are winning the battle for control of the Catholic Church and the conservatives don't like it. If they could, they would return the Church back to the way it was before Vatican Two -- when doctrine held that Heaven was reserved for Catholics only, no Jews or Protestants allowed.

I don't worry about a long-term conservative trend. It won't happen because the moral trend of our species is toward the liberal goal of equality.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
The failure of liberalism is that it has been unable to focus on and therefor defend itself against the forces that innately oppose it. Liberalism embodies a fundamental "live and let live whenever possible" approach to social cohesion and unity that enables and protects those who would seek to take personal advantage of others for their own gain. And those people exist in every society and culture, to a significant enough degree that they MUST BE GUARDED AGAINST. And liberalism has consistently failed to do so.

So that as people see these aberrant aggressors continuing to gain in their selfish pursuit of wealth and power; because the liberalism that gives them the freedom to pursue these selfish desires also fails to guard society against the negative effects that result, they become convinced that greed and selfishness are the stronger, more effective human attributes to possess, and to live by. (If you can't beat the enemy, join the enemy.) And so they begin to join and support the insurgency. And eventually the liberals and liberalism are succumbed, and society becomes ruled by selfishness, ego, and greed, and by the might of superior violence.

Eventually the people can no longer tolerate the suffering this all causes, and must revolt, and re-establish liberalism, again. Which sets them up for another cycle of liberal success, then liberal failure, and then the disastrous rule of greed and violence that results. And this cycle will remain our future until it either destroys us, entirely, or liberalism finally learns to protect itself against the forces within it that seek to destroy it for personal power and profit.
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Many conservatives and those on the far right and the far left also use liberal and liberalism as a slur or in a derogatory way:

Where do you feel this denigration is unjustified? Are there any areas where you believe criticism may be justified?

That's sort of an outdated strategy on the Right, they don't do it so much anymore. Now that lefties have owned the label, the Right has tried to appropriate it back to themselves - "classically," of course.

Their new boogeyman and favorite slur is "socialist." It's applied to pretty much everyone left of center, and consistently conflated with authoritarian communism a la the Soviet Union.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This thread is in the Liberal Only sub forum. If you are not a Liberal, either do not reply here or keep it respectful and positive when doing so.
=== Non-Moderator Notice ===
3) The Political World forum has several "only" subforums that are for the
use of members who identify with those political leanings. Members who
do not identify with those political leanings are not allowed to post there.
Those not identifying as liberal may respond by starting a new thread elsewhere.
(Prefixes such as "Classical" do not qualify one.)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What do you believe is the source of this authoritarian populism?

Agree with @KAT-KAT. Indoctrination through the conservative media was a huge factor in the US.

What are the best approaches in opposing it? What do you believe someone can do to help liberals protect freedom and equality for future generations?

I have no solutions. In America, there seems to be a erosion of morals due to the right. When a serial adulterer, self-admitted sexual predator, bigot, and inveterate liar enjoys an over 40% approval rating, there is a rampant moral sickness present. I see no hope there for such a nation.

America is also suffering an intellectual crisis. The electorate seems incompetent to self-govern. They have probably already thrown their democracy away, and have no means to recover it. American government is now serving only the 1%. Ordinary citizens are capital in their eyes, like cattle. Their value is limited to how they can help the 1% concentrate more wealth by working their businesses for the lowest wages in decades, with the least social safety net possible, under the most dangerous conditions at work and in their polluted neighborhoods. Like cattle on a farm, they deserve nothing more than what is necessary to keep them working. The beauty for the oppressors is that unlike cattle or farm machines, people don't need to be purchased. Also, they don't need to be taken care of - housed, fed, etc. Just give them a small check and send them away to find a double-wide and some McDonalds themselves.

And the ones most oppressed and the closest to financial ruin are the same undereducated blue collar workers that shout MAGA at rallies. Their also where the climate deniers concentrate. That's what I mean by moral and intellectual collapse. As I said, I see no hope for those people..

Many conservatives and those on the far right and the far left also use liberal and liberalism as a slur or in a derogatory way: Where do you feel this denigration is unjustified?

I haven't heard liberals use the term liberal in a derogatory manner. America's conservatives hate liberals and liberalism. They speak of it as a disease or disloyalty - like a moral failing. The like to use language like leftist, extremist far left liberal, Marxist, and socialist Democrat.

I want to add this: Ten years ago, I retired and expatriated to Mexico in a smallish village on a mountain lake. I have allowed my world to contract to this tiny piece of it and those surrounding me. I no longer have a global outlook. I no longer think about people I can't see. I have become apolitical. I do not vote in either country, and don't consider myself either American (except in a technical sense relating to citizenship and passports) or Mexican. I don't have or want a country any more. A local community is enough.

I no longer contribute to the ACLU or the Southern Poverty Law Center, and I've allowed my subscription to Free Inquiry to lapse. My interests, efforts, and charitable contributions are all local, and none are political.

I still maintain and apply my liberal psychology and values locally, but have signed off of the greater world except for Internet message boards, satellite TV, and Amazon purchases. I don't watch the news, and no longer care who the American president is, for example, although I would still prefer to see a black, gay, atheist woman be the American president over that vile piece of flesh presently defiling America further.

And I have lost any compassion I might once have had for America's conservatives. They're not fellow anythings anymore, just people who happen to also be American. I have no interest in their futures, but do take pleasure every time their stupidity and immorality costs them. I am very pleased that the American Midwest and South, where the conservatives cluster, are the hardest hit by extreme weather. Also, these are the people who are most likely to become the next homeless. And I get pleasure whenever I read things like this:
  • "Water will one day swamp historic Tangier Island, in the Chesapeake Bay. But its inhabitants argue that it's erosion, not climate change ... Earl Swift explains in his new book, Chesapeake Requiem, the future for the island, and numerous other low-lying communities across the world, is not looking bright, as a result of rising seas due to climate change. When National Geographic caught up with the author at his home in Charlottesville, Virginia, he explained ... though their island is disappearing under their noses, they voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump." Tiny U.S. Island is Drowning. Residents Deny the Reason
These rabid, Trump-loving, climate denying conservatives are losing their land, their homes, and their livelihoods as crabbers. I not only have zero sympathy for them, I was glad to learn that Trump refused to help them financially, telling them not to worry. And they'll all likely vote for him again. How can one not smirk at such people? Or be grateful that it was people like this that were harmed and not people who knew better.

Or this:
  • "Husband of a Trump supporter deported back to Mexico
    "
I once considered schadenfreude an illiberal position. I would have criticized myself for thinking such things, chased the thoughts out of my head, and never admit them out loud or in writing like this. Now, I just don't care any more. I still considerate it unfortunate that this Hispanic man was deported, which is my liberal heritage still manifesting, but I feel nothing for his wife except schadenfreude (also known as epicaricacy if you like words). Good. She thought that Trump would make a good president despite promising to keep the bad hombres out of the country with a big wall. And her husband was an undocumented immigrant. What a fool.

Anyway, the point of all this is to ask to what extent I can still call myself liberal. Maybe I'm not even on this scale at all, being so apolitical and indifferent to the plight of so many, actually taking pleasure in their fates if they're Trump supporters and/or climate deniers.
 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Lots of questions for me to answer. I'll start with this one:



Radio programs, pseudoscientific articles, tampering of foreign governments, and a certain someone we all talk about a lot who eats McDonald's and holds political office.

Liberalism is seen differently in the UK than the US, not as threatening. But we still have have Murdoch and the rest of the group of 5 far right press moguls, BBC news and project fear from conservative government.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Agree with @KAT-KAT. Indoctrination through the conservative media was a huge factor in the US.



I have no solutions. In America, there seems to be a erosion of morals due to the right. When a serial adulterer, self-admitted sexual predator, bigot, and inveterate liar enjoys an over 40% approval rating, there is a rampant moral sickness present. I see no hope there for such a nation.

America is also suffering an intellectual crisis. The electorate seems incompetent to self-govern. They have probably already thrown their democracy away, and have no means to recover it. American government is now serving only the 1%. Ordinary citizens are capital in their eyes, like cattle. Their value is limited to how they can help the 1% concentrate more wealth by working their businesses for the lowest wages in decades, with the least social safety net possible, under the most dangerous conditions at work and in their polluted neighborhoods. Like cattle on a farm, they deserve nothing more than what is necessary to keep them working. The beauty for the oppressors is that unlike cattle or farm machines, people don't need to be purchased. Also, they don't need to be taken care of - housed, fed, etc. Just give them a small check and send them away to find a double-wide and some McDonalds themselves.

And the ones most oppressed and the closest to financial ruin are the same undereducated blue collar workers that shout MAGA at rallies. Their also where the climate deniers concentrate. That's what I mean by moral and intellectual collapse. As I said, I see no hope for those people..



I haven't heard liberals use the term liberal in a derogatory manner. America's conservatives hate liberals and liberalism. They speak of it as a disease or disloyalty - like a moral failing. The like to use language like leftist, extremist far left liberal, Marxist, and socialist Democrat.

I want to add this: Ten years ago, I retired and expatriated to Mexico in a smallish village on a mountain lake. I have allowed my world to contract to this tiny piece of it and those surrounding me. I no longer have a global outlook. I no longer think about people I can't see. I have become apolitical. I do not vote in either country, and don't consider myself either American (except in a technical sense relating to citizenship and passports) or Mexican. I don't have or want a country any more. A local community is enough.

I no longer contribute to the ACLU or the Southern Poverty Law Center, and I've allowed my subscription to Free Inquiry to lapse. My interests, efforts, and charitable contributions are all local, and none are political.

I still maintain and apply my liberal psychology and values locally, but have signed off of the greater world except for Internet message boards, satellite TV, and Amazon purchases. I don't watch the news, and no longer care who the American president is, for example, although I would still prefer to see a black, gay, atheist woman be the American president over that vile piece of flesh presently defiling America further.

And I have lost any compassion I might once have had for America's conservatives. They're not fellow anythings anymore, just people who happen to also be American. I have no interest in their futures, but do take pleasure every time their stupidity and immorality costs them. I am very pleased that the American Midwest and South, where the conservatives cluster, are the hardest hit by extreme weather. Also, these are the people who are most likely to become the next homeless. And I get pleasure whenever I read things like this:
  • "Water will one day swamp historic Tangier Island, in the Chesapeake Bay. But its inhabitants argue that it's erosion, not climate change ... Earl Swift explains in his new book, Chesapeake Requiem, the future for the island, and numerous other low-lying communities across the world, is not looking bright, as a result of rising seas due to climate change. When National Geographic caught up with the author at his home in Charlottesville, Virginia, he explained ... though their island is disappearing under their noses, they voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump." Tiny U.S. Island is Drowning. Residents Deny the Reason
These rabid, Trump-loving, climate denying conservatives are losing their land, their homes, and their livelihoods as crabbers. I not only have zero sympathy for them, I was glad to learn that Trump refused to help them financially, telling them not to worry. And they'll all likely vote for him again. How can one not smirk at such people? Or be grateful that it was people like this that were harmed and not people who knew better.

Or this:
  • "Husband of a Trump supporter deported back to Mexico
    "
I once considered schadenfreude an illiberal position. I would have criticized myself for thinking such things, chased the thoughts out of my head, and never admit them out loud or in writing like this. Now, I just don't care any more. I still considerate it unfortunate that this Hispanic man was deported, which is my liberal heritage still manifesting, but I feel nothing for his wife except schadenfreude (also known as epicaricacy if you like words). Good. She thought that Trump would make a good president despite promising to keep the bad hombres out of the country with a big wall. And her husband was an undocumented immigrant. What a fool.

Anyway, the point of all this is to ask to what extent I can still call myself liberal. Maybe I'm not even on this scale at all, being so apolitical and indifferent to the plight of so many, actually taking pleasure in their fates if they're Trump supporters and/or climate deniers.

I agree with large amounts of what you said here, but I'm am struck by the sense of tragedy that America and, it would appear, large parts of the world are turning their backs on the ideas and institutions that got us this far. The worst thing about it was that, even if we didn't know the exact course of events it would take, many of the warning signs were there if only people actually looked. I fear for the future and can well see some combination of violent dictatorship, climate change and war within my lifetime. However, I still hope that humanity has something "more" to offer than that, I just don't know what it is yet. I'll let you know if I get any closer to finding it. :)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree with large amounts of what you said here, but I'm am struck by the sense of tragedy that America and, it would appear, large parts of the world are turning their backs on the ideas and institutions that got us this far. The worst thing about it was that, even if we didn't know the exact course of events it would take, many of the warning signs were there if only people actually looked. I fear for the future and can well see some combination of violent dictatorship, climate change and war within my lifetime. However, I still hope that humanity has something "more" to offer than that, I just don't know what it is yet. I'll let you know if I get any closer to finding it.

You are less than half my age (I'm 65 yo), which I'm sure accounts for much of the difference in our outlooks. I feel that I and my wife are as immune from the effects of these transformations as is possible, and choose to live out the rest of our lives taking care of our own needs and likes divorced from the problems of the world. I have spent a lifetime attending to the needs of others (I'm a retired physician) and doing my best to understand the world and to be a positive force in it.

But that was when I thought that it mattered to me and others. I no longer think that - the task is hopeless, I'm tired of that now, there is little hope of stemming the wave of fascism washing over much of the world, nor of climate catastrophe being avoided. I find world news mostly depressing and irrelevant, so I don't want to look at the parts outside of this community too closely any more.

I've completed the grieving process and have reached acceptance regarding the death of the America I once loved - a world being overrun by mean, angry, and selfish people. This is what's coming, and I see it as unstoppable. The people who are kind and intelligent are being overrun by Neanderthals, but not where I live. My world has far fewer mass killings, bigotry, internal fighting, and little climate change. I live in a beautiful and peaceful place with great weather, prices, and happy people who are seeing their lives improve every generation as was the case in America when I was born. I choose to live in this world and not let the other diminish the experience. Que será será. I leave the world to your generation. Hopefully, you can do better than my generation did. Many of us tried, but as you can see, the enemy is prevailing

So I've signed off to make this final stage of stage of life the best it can be for my wife, dogs, and myself. Good luck to you.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
What do you believe is the source of this authoritarian populism? What are the best approaches in opposing it?

We are living in an era of radical change. Of course we as liberals are fully alive to environmental changes brought about by climate change.

But to me that's just the start. We have major areas of the world that are on the edge or currently experiencing population declines - something that stresses systems designed in a time of population growth.

We are also seeing demographic changes of a fundamental kind in my places brought about by population migration into Europe and America. Those, like me, who grew up in the assumption of male, white leadership are being faced with becoming majority minority. And I think Barack Obama's Presidency caused a lot of white supremacists to panic.

We are also seeing a revolution in jobs as more and more jobs are automated out of existence. This causes distress in those whose working career was based on continuity of jobs.

The rise of women to take their rightful place as men's equals also upsets male traditionalists whether it be in repressive Saudi Arabia or in glass-ceiling America. The thought of a woman president after a black president was I think enough to push some over the edge into panic and rage.

The dying of traditional religion as many nations including the USA move from Protestant and Catholic theology being assumed in national life to a world where a great diversity of beliefs and non-beliefs step forward is yet another area.

What do we do about it? First make sure we see what is going in in all it's truly revolutionary implications. The second is to understand the psychology of those who are being driven by fear and anger when they sense or are aware of the changes. Third is to keep working toward positive ends with helping people mitigate things like career destruction. And, of course, organize, register people to vote and all the traditional means.

What do you believe the future holds for liberals such as yourself and liberalism in general?

I see us emerging from the current mess into a bright future but not without trials and tribulations. Dealing with the growth of income inequality which leads to power inequality could be one of those trials.

I see signs that did not exist during my youth of such changes. These include social entrepeneurs, movements to end food waste by making sure everyone has a decent diet, the diminishing of abject poverty in the world, the growth of environmentally friendly products and so forth as signs.

You are less than half my age (I'm 65 yo), which I'm sure accounts for much of the difference in our outlooks. I feel that I and my wife are as immune from the effects of these transformations a

I'm 74 and don't feel at all immune from much of what is going on. I'm retired but what I've set aside for the rest of our lives is at risk so even there I'm not immune from possible serious financial disruptions.

I also feel called to volunteer with organizations working to address abject poverty. From my perspective, doing something, anything, is much better than nothing.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are less than half my age (I'm 65 yo), which I'm sure accounts for much of the difference in our outlooks. I feel that I and my wife are as immune from the effects of these transformations as is possible

I'm 74 and don't feel at all immune from much of what is going on. I'm retired but what I've set aside for the rest of our lives is at risk so even there I'm not immune from possible serious financial disruptions.

I could have elaborated further, so I will now.

Another big difference between @Laika and me besides our age is where we live. I presume that he and you are both Americans living in America, but you also might be Canadians, Aussies, or Europeans.

My wife and I traded in our American lives to live in the mountains of the Sierra Madres about ten years ago. We benefited in multiple ways relevant to this discussion.

First, we traded an angry, fearful culture characterized by consumerism, racism, guns and mass shootings, bitter division, an indifferent federal government trying to erode away the things important to ordinary people, and extreme weather that takes homes and lives. Plus, Americans pay far too much for everything.

As I described somewhat above, what we got in return was the chance to live in a beautiful place with excellent weather (we neither have nor need central air or heat, and it rarely gets below 50 F or above 88 F) and happy people living simple lives for peanuts. The cost of living is much lower here, and we have been careful not to acquire debt - no mortgage (we buy homes free and clear here, our first for $95,000, though we could have spent half that), no car payment (we drive a 2001 model with 75,000 miles on it), no power bill (we're 100% solar because we so much high sun here and its rarely overcast), and no credit card debt since leaving the States. Plus, we get 8% (before taxes) interest on government-backed bonds.

Our cost of living is about $2000 a month, and we live well. One can get a nice dinner for two with a drink each for about $20 (I had salmon last night, and the wife had teriyaki shrimp with a margarita each - 380 pesos, or about $19.40 using today's exchange rate) Very little that goes on north of the border affects us, including who gets confirmed to the Supreme Court, whether the elections are honest there or not, America's problems with creeping fascism and racism, any Trumpian tariff that might raise prices for those living in America, etc.. The American national debt is irrelevant to us, as is the stock market.

Health care is affordable here. Our health insurance has a high deductible, which keeps it inexpensive, so we pay most expenses out of pocket. I had two cataract surgeries here for about $2000 each. I just refilled one of my blood pressure medicines - $6 for 100 days worth.

We need much less insurance here than we were carrying in the states. Our homes are pretty inflammable apart from contents. There is no wood frame or sheet rock - just stone, tile, cement, and steel. We don't need home liability insurance, for example. Slip down our stairs and that's on you here. And there is virtually no risk of loss to hurricane, tornado, or flood. We just carry auto and health.

We feel financially secure because of the low cost of living and the high interest rates on bonds. But we could live on just our Social Security.

And we feel physically safe - safer than in the States. Violence here is mostly cartel violence, and we expats are of no interest to them. They kill one another, those that challenge them like judges, journalists, and politicians, and unfortunately, the families of all of the above. If we didn't feel safe, we wouldn't be here.

If you're imagining that we live bleak lives with Mexicans in sombreros sitting in the shade of a cactus like an old Clint Eastwood movie, you have a flawed image. This is where we live:

upload_2019-12-2_10-12-33.jpeg
images
images
images


These are the kinds of things that make us feel relatively buffered from American and other vicissitudes. It's not just being older. Getting out of America was much of it.

I also feel called to volunteer with organizations working to address abject poverty. From my perspective, doing something, anything, is much better than nothing.

Perhaps I gave you the impression that we care only about ourselves. We take interest in our neighbors and our local community, but not in much that is going on more than a few miles from the lake. We don't travel any more, and have no use for big cities. Our simple lives are lived mostly on foot walking the cobblestoned streets to local restaurants, markets, and other vendors.

There are many charitable causes locally. Our charitable contributions are all local. We can see how they're spent. A friend of ours is sponsoring two young Mexicans going to college. My wife and I like to contribute to dog shelters. Others are involved with local orphanages or feeding and housing local indigenous people, who, speaking of abject poverty, are among the poorest Mexicans.

Our solution is not possible for everybody - some are still working (this is a good economy for spending, but not for earning anything other than bank interest), some have familial commitments that keeps them in place, some just don't want to live in a foreign land, etc.. But for those who can, this is a good solution to a host of American problems that have all but disappeared from our lives.

Our Mexican problems are trivial. Noisy church holidays that frighten the dogs, and an ever more stressed infrastructure (traffic, and Internet speed have been adversely impacted by the tremendous growth here), and the risk of some tropical diseases like dengue. We still have access to the parts of America still of interest to us through satellite TV and radio, bootleg DVDs for $1.50 each, and Amazon deliveries. Spanish is helpful, not necessary inasmuch as the local economy has adapted to the large American and Canadian presence, and virtually everybody doing business beyond a streetside taco stand or car washing speaks English. I would be fluent in Spanish years ago if that was all we heard and spoke, but it's not. The waiters don't want us speaking Spanish to them. They want to practice their English.

Can you understand why we feel insulated from most of the world's problems, and thus more secure than before relocating? We're not a terrorist target here like we were in the States, and we are less likely to be nuked, shot, or to die behind the wheel.

I hope that all is well for you from here to the end, and I hope your money lasts. I wish you peace of mind.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You are less than half my age (I'm 65 yo), which I'm sure accounts for much of the difference in our outlooks. I feel that I and my wife are as immune from the effects of these transformations as is possible, and choose to live out the rest of our lives taking care of our own needs and likes divorced from the problems of the world. I have spent a lifetime attending to the needs of others (I'm a retired physician) and doing my best to understand the world and to be a positive force in it.

But that was when I thought that it mattered to me and others. I no longer think that - the task is hopeless, I'm tired of that now, there is little hope of stemming the wave of fascism washing over much of the world, nor of climate catastrophe being avoided. I find world news mostly depressing and irrelevant, so I don't want to look at the parts outside of this community too closely any more.

I've completed the grieving process and have reached acceptance regarding the death of the America I once loved - a world being overrun by mean, angry, and selfish people. This is what's coming, and I see it as unstoppable. The people who are kind and intelligent are being overrun by Neanderthals, but not where I live. My world has far fewer mass killings, bigotry, internal fighting, and little climate change. I live in a beautiful and peaceful place with great weather, prices, and happy people who are seeing their lives improve every generation as was the case in America when I was born. I choose to live in this world and not let the other diminish the experience. Que será será. I leave the world to your generation. Hopefully, you can do better than my generation did. Many of us tried, but as you can see, the enemy is prevailing

So I've signed off to make this final stage of stage of life the best it can be for my wife, dogs, and myself. Good luck to you.
I don't agree with you on a lot of things, but I can certainly identify with every word you've written, here. Except, perhaps, that where I live is not some pleasant bubble divorced from the ugly reality that is engulfing the rest of the world. So I am suffering the consequences of this ugly tide along with everyone else.

The "great experiment" has failed, miserably, because it didn't take responsibility for the ignorance, greed, and general stupidity it allowed us to wallow in and succumb to in the name of "freedom". And we are paying, and will continue to pay a very heavy price for our insisting on confusing freedom with selfishness. I wish I could be more optimistic, as well, but I just don't see any signs that would warrant it.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
What has given the Liberalism a bad rap has been the Democrat leadership and fake news over many years. For example, how many liberals went along with the collusion delusion? People with common sense, looking in, saw a bunch of unhinged liberals, who did not appear to have any critical judgment skills. In the end, it was all nonsense. Those with common sense saw this early. Anyone who defended Trump, against the faux reality of the swamp, was treated with hostility and disrespect. You guys did this to yourself.

The problem as I see it is liberalism is about feeling and caring, but feeling alone lacks common sense in terms of practical solutions. Feeling is often unable to see when a solution commits injustice; ends to justified the means. For example, Obama Care helped some, but it also hurt many people as insurance rates skyrocketed, in spite of reassurances this would not occur. Now the Democrats candidates do not even talk about it as though it never happened. I know, if I was misled by my leaders, and their false and negative accusations did not pan out, I would hold the leaders feet to the fire, and not fall for another scam; abused wife syndrome.

How many liberals can see the lopsided injustice of this latest round of impeachment inquisition? All rules of fairness are gone. Liberals used to be about fairness. The Democrats are stacking the deck so they can cheat to win. Liberals used to be known as people who fought for victims and underdogs. Now they are part of an army cheering injustice. Many Liberals have become Liberal in name only; LINO. This is where the actions are no longer consist with what Liberalism once meant. It was not always a philosophy of negativity and hostility, but it was once one of love and charity.

The main problem was that the Democrat leadership committed many crimes before and after the 2016 election. Normally, this would be buried when only insiders ran for president. The insiders were made paranoid, when Trump, an outsider, wanted to drain the swamp and then won. The swamp is a bunch of high level con men, scattered throughout government, running scams, like the collusion delusion, while gaining personal fortunes; Biden. The swamp has created bad blood for the Liberals, since the swamp is in survival mode and needs pawns. The Liberals need to abandon the swamp and take a bath in clean water. Once clean, the respect will come back to you.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What has given the Liberalism a bad rap has been the Democrat leadership and fake news over many years

No. What has given liberalism in America a bad name is the incessant conservative media's indoctrination of susceptible minds. Too many Americans lack the critical thinking skills to not be sucked in. There's a good reason that most blue collar workers are conservative, and most university professors are liberal. One group will evaluate a claim against the evidence and argument presented with it, the other does nothing like that - just passively imbibes whatever it hears if it is from a trusted source.

For example, how many liberals went along with the collusion delusion?

Delusion? The delusion is that Trump isn't the miscreant many of us know him to be. That guy cheats at everything, including his wives and golf. If we saw his taxes, I'm sure he cheated there as well. He cheated his employees and contractors out of their pay. It's hardly delusive to think that he would cheat in an election.

People with common sense, looking in, saw a bunch of unhinged liberals

I see a Republican crime family that needs to be exposed, but other Republicans are fairly successfully trying to prevent it.

The problem as I see it is liberalism is about feeling and caring

What horrible people. Maybe they should be more like conservatives, who don't seem to be as burdened with such things.

How many liberals can see the lopsided injustice of this latest round of impeachment inquisition?

Seriously? The Democrats need no other reason to impeach Trump than because they can.

Who remembers Newt Gingrich's answer when asked why impeach Bill Clinton : "because we can"? And they did, in an extremely partisan way following an actual witch hunt in search of a crime that took them from Whitewater to Travelgate to Paula Jones and eventually to Monica Lewinski, where they finally found something to bring articles of impeachment.
For me, that set the tone for how the Democrats should treat Republican the next Republican president that they could impeach.

Even if they didn't have just cause, the Democrats owe the Republicans an impeachment just because they can.

All rules of fairness are gone.

A long time ago. There are no such rules any more, and I wish that the Democrats would understand that and treat the Republicans as they have been treated. I've lost interest in treating Republicans any way other than what is best for America's liberals. Republicans should probable stifle and refrain from using the word fair. And Democrats need to learn to scoff at them openly when they do, and remind the public of the dirty tricks they have performed for decades now.

The days of forebearance and mutual respect are long gone. It's unrealistic to expect the left to respect the right.

They are stacking the deck so they can cheat to win.

I disagree, but wouldn't mind even if I thought that were true. I hope they do. The Republicans and the people that vote for them deserve nothing more from the left.

Nor would I mind if there were an actual coup.Trump whines about that as if liberals would care any more.

Nor would I mind an actual witch hunt. I remember the Starr investigation - a witch hunt in search of a crime that took them from Whitewater to Travelgate to Paula Jones and eventually to Monica Lewinski, where they finally found something to bring articles of impeachment.

For me, that set the tone for how the Democrats should treat Republican the next Republican president that they could impeach. Just find some pretense to impeach him and do it to send a message that such behavior will not be rolled over for. Unfortunately, the Democrats rolled over any. Bush should have been impeached for cause (lying about WMDs), but no cause was needed other than him being a Republican president.

Once again, it is unrealistic to expect America's liberals to care about its conservative. That cord was cut long ago with the right's vicious assault on the left. Hopefully, the Democrats will eventually understand this and proceed accordingly. Why? Because they can and should.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I used to be a liberal, when I was younger. We were called the love generation. My generation did not trust big government and its leaders. This generation of liberals is eagerly brain washed by liars like Schiff.

The collusion delusion should have raised at least a yellow flag. It was a rigged process, with only Democrat lawyers helping Mueller find any dirt they could on Trump. But even after yeas of trying they could not find anything worthy of impeachment. It was all bull crap.

You were fed a pile of horse crap and appear to what even more from the same liars. This is what blue color Democrats, who are not political, see. This is why they voted for Trump in 2016 and will again in 2020.

One of the reasons the Democrat leadership is working the impeachment scams overtime, now, is the IG report and Durham criminal referrals are coming up. Key players are in trouble and many are trying to stay out of jail, by any means possible. They will use you as a pawn, to save their own skin.

Do you remember the Russian reset button with Hillary and Obama. This is when the Democrats decided to start a new friendly relationship with Putin and Russia. They sold uranium to Russia. They also disarmed Ukraine, and then withheld aid, allowing Russia time to invade Ukraine and then annex Crimea. Was this orchestrated by Obama and Putin, or was Obama out smarted by Putin? The Durham investigation may answer this.
 
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