Liberal Catholicism & the Falsification of the Magisterium

[IndigoChild5559]

God's anointed in this context is not Israel but rather Cyrus Isaiah 45:1 the context starts with chapter 41 and spans until chapter 51 where the prophecy starts talking about God's judgement and
consolation.

----

Can you say which verse or text from Isaiah talks about messiah?

Sure:
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

 

[paradox]

Sure:
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

how could there be 2 or more servants within same context?
Are you differentiating "annointed" and "servant" literally?

 

[KW]

Wisdom is not a book that is in the Jewish canon. Our canon is basically the same set of books as the Protestant Bible, but in a different order.

It's in the Septuagint, and it was written decades before Christ.

You don't have any opinion?

Do you think it is interesting?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Moses and Joshua were also called servants of God in the Hebrew scriptures

But not in the book of Isaiah. Isaiah identifies only Israel as a servant, so that every time he mentions the servant, you can be sure he is referring to Israel.

, so you can tell me who fulfilled these things--Moses, Joshua, Israel or Jesus, as in Is 53:

DIED
ROSE to count their descendants AFTER DEATH
DIED for sin between other sinners
Was BURIED with the rich in His tomb

Israel

 

[IndigoChild5559]

how could there be 2 or more servants within same context?
Are you differentiating "annointed" and "servant" literally?

No, that's the whole point. Context shows that there is only one servant, and according to Isaiah 41:8 that servant is Israel.

Anointed and servant mean entirely different things. I'm not sure what to make of your question.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's in the Septuagint, and it was written decades before Christ.

You don't have any opinion?

Do you think it is interesting?

The Septuagint is not the Jewish canon. Furthermore, it doesn't even use Hebrew. There are many cases where the translation is very bad. Why the Christian church chose to use the Septuagint is beyond me. But at any rate, the point is that it is NOT Jewish canon, so I dont' feel obligated to try to explain what it says. You might as well quote something from the Book of Mormon or the Quran, for all its worth.

 

[KW]

The Septuagint is not the Jewish canon. Furthermore, it doesn't even use Hebrew. There are many cases where the translation is very bad. Why the Christian church chose to use the Septuagint is beyond me. But at any rate, the point is that it is NOT Jewish canon, so I dont' feel obligated to try to explain what it says. You might as well quote something from the Book of Mormon or the Quran, for all its worth.

It was used by the Greek speaking Jews. Many of the early Christians spoke Greek.

What do you mean by "the translation is bad"? It was written in Greek.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It was used by the Greek speaking Jews. Many of the early Christians spoke Greek.

What do you mean by "the translation is bad"? It was written in Greek.

I already understand that it was used by Greek speaking Jews.

My point remains in tact that the Septuagint was not a canon. The finished canon was not formed until late in the first century CE. In fact, during the time of Jesus, the canon was only The Torah, the prophets, and the psalms.

Translations are by their very nature inferior. But the Septuagint is a particularly bad translation. Jews accept only the Hebrew text as canon -- translations are helpful to those who don't speak hebrew, but they are not canon.

My understanding is that Wisdom was rejected as canon by Jews because it was written in Greek. Only those texts that were written in Hebrew were allowed in.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But not in the book of Isaiah. Isaiah identifies only Israel as a servant, so that every time he mentions the servant, you can be sure he is referring to Israel.

Israel

No, respectfully, Isaiah identifies the SERVANT Rebbe Melekh HaMoshiach as THE SERVANT.

The servant, we're told in scripture is too large to be just for Israel so He is for the Gentiles. We KNOW how Gentiles sometimes (often!) treat Israel. Now name a Jew who is worshipped worldwide by Gentiles as teacher/king/messiah!

Again, you used general terms "Isaiah says this, not this," and either of us can say "Isaiah said The Phillies will win the World Series" and that means less to me that what HA SHEM said:

Israel or a person died for sin then rose, was rejected by Israel, was a man of sorrow, buried with the rich, with sinners in His death, grew up before Him tender, etc., etc.

Have you prayed through verse 1? Israel was disbelieved by ISRAEL as Isaiah had preached Him? REALLY?! We both KNOW JESUS was mostly disbelieved by ISRAEL.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Paul didn't reprove Peter for doctrine, but for behavior.

In fact, Paul went to Peter for Doctrine in Acts 15. The Christians in Antioch had a doctrinal dispute but they didn't attempt to settle it themselves, they consulted the Church leaders. The revelation from God that provided the answer was provided to Peter in a vision directly from God.

Peter and Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles, as does the entire Church in the apostolic era and throughout history.

" . . . And Peter, the first Pope, was married, and the main minister to Israel, where Paul went to the Gentiles. RC faith makes little sense to me, sometimes, to be honest."

 

[pearl]

My understanding is that Wisdom was rejected as canon by Jews because it was written in Greek. Only those texts that were written in Hebrew were allowed in.

That was also Luther's reasoning.

Why the Christian church chose to use the Septuagint is beyond me

Because it was the language of the people at the time. Most likely it would have been the language in the synagogue at the time of Jesus. In any event It more than likely was the translation used by the Gospel authors.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, respectfully, Isaiah identifies the SERVANT Rebbe Melekh HaMoshiach as THE SERVANT.

Please give me the chapter and verse where Isaiah says, "My servant the messiah."

Again, you used general terms "Isaiah says this, not this," and either of us can say "Isaiah said The Phillies will win the World Series" and that means less to me that what HA SHEM said:

Oh puhleeze. No, neither one of us can say that. The ridiculousness of your argument betrays your desperation.

 

[metis]

Yet Paul reproved them both for poor doctrine. And Peter, the first Pope, was married, and the main minister to Israel, where Paul went to the Gentiles.

So?

Yes, they sometimes disagreed but that's to be expected.

RC faith makes little sense to me, sometimes, to be honest.

Then you've never studied it that would include where it's derived from.

Catholic theology is very logical, but like all interpretations and applications it can be questioned, no doubt. Personally, I grew up in a very fundamentalist Protestant family and church, and it wasn't until I studied theology whereas I converted to Catholicism when in the my 30's.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Because it was the language of the people at the time. Most likely it would have been the language in the synagogue at the time of Jesus. In any event It more than likely was the translation used by the Gospel authors.

But it is a mere translation. Any translation is by nature inferior -- you cannot fully capture the original text if you translate. Further, as far as translations go, the Septuagint is particularly bad.

 

[metis]

" . . . And Peter, the first Pope, was married, and the main minister to Israel, where Paul went to the Gentiles. RC faith makes little sense to me, sometimes, to be honest."

OK, another nice little anti-Catholic slam-- got it.

BTW, Paul said the ideal was not to get married.

 

[paradox]

Please give me the chapter and verse where Isaiah says, "My servant the messiah."

Can you give a verse or text from Isaiah talking about messiah? (I mean where does it use the word "messiah"?)

 

[BilliardsBall]

Please give me the chapter and verse where Isaiah says, "My servant the messiah."

Oh puhleeze. No, neither one of us can say that. The ridiculousness of your argument betrays your desperation.

Huh? My points are:

1) You have never dealt with the issues I've raised, other than endlessly repeating "But the text is about Israel". You'd have to prove the text is about Israel by handling my objections, for example...

2) ISRAEL was with a rich man in his TOMB. How big is the tomb that holds Israel? Is it made of one piece of marble? Everyone--including most Jews--can see at a glance Isaiah 53 is about Jesus Christ.

 

[BilliardsBall]

OK, another nice little anti-Catholic slam-- got it.

BTW, Paul said the ideal was not to get married.

Huh? RC faith is illogical--and idolatry in my humble opinion--but the real issue is whether the Bible texts teach salvation by trusting Jesus or salvation by works including many things not in the texts.

 

[metis]

Huh? RC faith is illogical--and idolatry in my humble opinion

We don't worhip objects, and there's a huge difference theologically between "veneration" and "idolatry".

and idolatry in my humble opinion--but the real issue is whether the Bible texts teach salvation by trusting Jesus or salvation by works including many things not in the texts.

We don't teach that one is saved by "works", so no wonder you falsely believe in what you think the Church teaches.

Here's the basis of what we teach:
Matthew 22[34]But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sad'ducees, they came together.
[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

Now then follow the above up with what Jesus taught in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats-- Matthew 25

Now, if your church teaches that we don't agree with both of the above citations, then let me recommend you go find a church that teaches that lying is morally wrong.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Please give me the chapter and verse where Isaiah says, "My servant the messiah."

Oh puhleeze. No, neither one of us can say that. The ridiculousness of your argument betrays your desperation.

Yeshayahu 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Of course, you will make this ISRAEL will RAISE UP ISRAEL and RESTORE THE SAVED OF ISRAEL, which is ridiculous on its face.