Liberal Catholicism & the Falsification of the Magisterium

[IndigoChild5559]

An impossibility since we have to do bizarre things to make Israel "with a rich man in his tomb and between sinners at his death", or a singular man of sorrow, or someone whom Israel disbelieves in general (verse 1)!

Your comments about Jesus bring to mind IS 53:1.

Not at all. Jews have been persecuted and slaughtered. And it is not uncommon to refer to Israel in the singular, as I am doing in this sentence.

 

[KW]

Perhaps in the NT you've seen faith alone one time, however, there are over 150 statements on receiving salvation in the NT, and ALL of them are "trust Jesus". I believe the Bible is univocal so you'd need to reconcile James 2 and etc. with clear statements that no works are needed (Rom 4:1-4, Rom 6:23, etc.)

If you are correct about how we receive grace (actions instead of trust) then someone can become inert and lose their salvation, which also means that eternal life is temporary--something that is illogical.

God loves us an gifts us with eternal life per the Bible. Doing actions to earn something makes a free gift no longer a gift (Romans 11).

 

[KW]

Perhaps in the NT you've seen faith alone one time, however, there are over 150 statements on receiving salvation in the NT, and ALL of them are "trust Jesus". I believe the Bible is univocal so you'd need to reconcile James 2 and etc. with clear statements that no works are needed (Rom 4:1-4, Rom 6:23, etc.)

If you are correct about how we receive grace (actions instead of trust) then someone can become inert and lose their salvation, which also means that eternal life is temporary--something that is illogical.

God loves us an gifts us with eternal life per the Bible. Doing actions to earn something makes a free gift no longer a gift (Romans 11).

More about our actions and salvation;

John 15
5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.

Gal 6

7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.9Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[metis]

Thank you for the details, but you didn't address my question:

If remission of sin is given to others besides God, and two apostles disagree regarding forgiveness, is the person forgiven?

The answer is why I think this another Roman doctrine not in the correct scriptural context.

I did answer the question in regard to the Church, and in the case of the Apostles it would likely relate to the issue at hand. Peter was the spiritual head of the Twelve but James was the administrative head, thus one would likely defer to the other if a decision had to be made out of their "area".

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus told the apostles: As the Father sent me, I am sending you.

The irony is they were sent to perform the Great Commission featuring the good news that salvation is via trust (faith, belief, pisteuo as the Greek verb) and not works. There are many verses that "salvation is NOT of works".

 

[BilliardsBall]

Start with Matt 7:21.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

And we have scriptural statements including what God's WILL is: "That all kinds of people trust Christ," 1 Tim 2.

Some say the will of God includes statements/terms not found in the Bible, for example, mass, extreme unction, Cana wedding, etc., etc.

 

[BilliardsBall]

More about our actions and salvation;

John 15
5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.

Gal 6

7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.9Let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

KW,

I am citing clear verses, by "clear" I mean unequivocal/easily parsed and interpreted: "He who hears my Word and trusts the Father who sent me HAS ETERNAL LIFE (salvation by trust) and DOES NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT (assurance/security of eternal life via trust).

Every person who argues some kind of works/we must do/sacraments, etc. uses arguable verses "burned" which can refer in John 15 to eternal life or rewards in Heaven or something with Israel and Jewish people or...

The same for Gal 6: the person sowing to please flesh could be a Christian and/or a non-Christian, right?

Sharing unclear verses--unclear meaning you say they mean X, I say they mean Y, is challenging. Why tell me what YOU think a clear verse means?

John 3:16 "Anyone who trusts Christ HAS ETERNAL LIFE and will not perish."

What does that verse say and what does it NOT say are the first two rules of Bible hermeneutics.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not at all. Jews have been persecuted and slaughtered. And it is not uncommon to refer to Israel in the singular, as I am doing in this sentence.

I didn't say what you said, I said "An impossibility since we have to do bizarre things to make Israel "with a rich man in his tomb and between sinners at his death", or a singular man of sorrow, or someone whom Israel disbelieves in general (verse 1)!

Your comments about Jesus bring to mind IS 53:1."

"Jews are persecuted" is not "Messiah [or Israel] will be with a rich man in His burial" or "Messiah [or Israel] with be killed alongside sinners" or "Messiah [or Israel] is a man of sorrow" or "Messiah [or Israel] is someone whom Israel disbelieves in".

When I witness to Jews outside RF, I ask permission to read a few verses, and after reading Is 53 the response is almost always, "SURE THAT'S JESUS, but I'm Jewish and disbelieve the NEW TESTAMENT you've just read to me." Then I say, "This was from Tanakh, Isaiah," and they get quiet and thoughtful.

Why? Because in the mere four citations above--and the whole chapter is this way--it is obviously Jesus and not an entire nation/race of people.

Here's what I find most interesting, there are hundreds of such verses about Jesus in Tanakh, and to remove anything that points to [what we are taught to hate and misunderstand] biblical Christianity/born again faith, we Jews make ALL these verses about Israel or Hezekiah or whomever but NOT Mashiach. Therefore, the average Jew I've met knows about Mashiach the following:

1) He's not come yet
2) He will make peace (Isaiah's swords to plowshares) [while ignoring Joel's plowshares to swords at Har-Meggido]
3) He's gonna be a "great guy" who teaches and explains Torah

. . . and that's about it.

Have YOU considered how Yeshua purified us and taught Torah? One of many examples would be Saducee/Pharisee arguments of the day regarding eternal life. He astonished the teachers that they refrained from asking Him questions--the questions that were the toughest came between the 10th and 14th of Nisan--the days the Pesach lamb was WATCHED, then He was slain and died at the time of the evening sacrifice--3 PM when the LAMBS were killed.

The concept that Mashiach will purify Torah for our people is from the Tanakh prophets, clearly Yeshua did all these things!

Etc., etc., etc.

 

[KW]

Do you believe a person who lives a life of disobedience to Christ will go to heaven if they don’t repent and change their ways?

What is the difference between the sheep and goats in Matt 25?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Do you believe a person who lives a life of disobedience to Christ will go to heaven if they don’t repent and change their ways?

I don't know. I seem to remember a Catholic claiming, that some people, who didn't follow the CC, could go the Heaven, if their "disobedience" was caused by the CC.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When I witness to Jews outside RF, I ask permission to read a few verses, and after reading Is 53 the response is almost always, "SURE THAT'S JESUS, but I'm Jewish and disbelieve the NEW TESTAMENT you've just read to me." Then I say, "This was from Tanakh, Isaiah," and they get quiet and thoughtful.

Yeah you keep repeating this over and over like it proves something. The only thing it proves is that you only talk to poorly educated Jews about Isaiah 53.

Again, Isaiah REVEALS who the servant is, and its not the messiah:
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

 

[KW]

Yeah you keep repeating this over and over like it proves something. The only thing it proves is that you only talk to poorly educated Jews about Isaiah 53.

Again, Isaiah REVEALS who the servant is, and its not the messiah:
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

What about this:

Wisdom 2:12-20

‘Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.

 

[paradox]

Again, Isaiah REVEALS who the servant is, and its not the messiah:
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

God's anointed in this context is not Israel but rather Cyrus Isaiah 45:1 the context starts with chapter 41 and spans until chapter 51 where the prophecy starts talking about God's judgement and
consolation.

----

Can you say which verse or text from Isaiah talks about messiah?

 

[metis]

I don't know. I seem to remember a Catholic claiming, that some people, who didn't follow the CC, could go the Heaven, if their "disobedience" was caused by the CC.

The Church does not judge who may or may not go to heaven.

 

[KW]

I don't know. I seem to remember a Catholic claiming, that some people, who didn't follow the CC, could go the Heaven, if their "disobedience" was caused by the CC.

more irrational gibberish.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I did answer the question in regard to the Church, and in the case of the Apostles it would likely relate to the issue at hand. Peter was the spiritual head of the Twelve but James was the administrative head, thus one would likely defer to the other if a decision had to be made out of their "area".

Yet Paul reproved them both for poor doctrine. And Peter, the first Pope, was married, and the main minister to Israel, where Paul went to the Gentiles. RC faith makes little sense to me, sometimes, to be honest.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yeah you keep repeating this over and over like it proves something. The only thing it proves is that you only talk to poorly educated Jews about Isaiah 53.

Again, Isaiah REVEALS who the servant is, and its not the messiah:
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

Moses and Joshua were also called servants of God in the Hebrew scriptures, so you can tell me who fulfilled these things--Moses, Joshua, Israel or Jesus, as in Is 53:

DIED
ROSE to count their descendants AFTER DEATH
DIED for sin between other sinners
Was BURIED with the rich in His tomb

 

[KW]

Yet Paul reproved them both for poor doctrine. And Peter, the first Pope, was married, and the main minister to Israel, where Paul went to the Gentiles. RC faith makes little sense to me, sometimes, to be honest.

Paul didn't reprove Peter for doctrine, but for behavior.

In fact, Paul went to Peter for Doctrine in Acts 15. The Christians in Antioch had a doctrinal dispute but they didn't attempt to settle it themselves, they consulted the Church leaders. The revelation from God that provided the answer was provided to Peter in a vision directly from God.

Peter and Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles, as does the entire Church in the apostolic era and throughout history.

 

[paradox]

Peter and Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles, as does the entire Church in the apostolic era and throughout history.

Correct, since anybody that was not a Jew was gentile - pagan

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What about this:

Wisdom 2:12-20

‘Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.

Wisdom is not a book that is in the Jewish canon. Our canon is basically the same set of books as the Protestant Bible, but in a different order.