Liberal Catholicism & the Falsification of the Magisterium

[metis]

Repent = metanoia = change of mind

Maybe try this instead:

re·pent
[rəˈpent]
VERB

1. feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin:
   "the priest urged his listeners to repent"

Also, Jesus gave the power of loosining & binding to the Apostles, so why would he do that if it was wrong and would end after the last Apostle died?

Rome says THEY save.

Absolutely false, as going to mass by itself saves no one. Where did you learn the above untruth? Or did you just invent it?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Tanakh says THOSE WHO TRUST IN THE LORD are as Mount Zion.

Both testaments have clearly TRUST GOD for SALVATION.

The tanakh says NOTHING about Jesus or even the real messiah providing salvation from sins.

 

[BilliardsBall]

1 John9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 20
21Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” 22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”

James 2:24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

There are over 150 NT statements that trusting Jesus is all that is required for salvation.

We can discuss the scriptures above--for example--if you forgive a person's sin (John 20, but I do not) who "wins"?

How do you understand John 1:12, though, first?

Thanks.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Maybe try this instead:

re·pent
[rəˈpent]
VERB

1. feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin:
   "the priest urged his listeners to repent"

Also, Jesus gave the power of loosining & binding to the Apostles, so why would he do that if it was wrong and would end after the last Apostle died?

Absolutely false, as going to mass by itself saves no one. Where did you learn the above untruth? Or did you just invent it?

Repent in a Greek lexicon is a change of mind. Thinking is not always feeling as you have it above.

If Jesus gave two believers the power to bind and loose, and they disagree on remitting someone's sin, whose decision becomes enacted?

 

[BilliardsBall]

The tanakh says NOTHING about Jesus or even the real messiah providing salvation from sins.

Isaiah 53 would be one of a number of examples.

 

[metis]

Repent in a Greek lexicon is a change of mind. Thinking is not always feeling as you have it above.

If Jesus gave two believers the power to bind and loose, and they disagree on remitting someone's sin, whose decision becomes enacted?

Again, you are ignoring Jesus' message to the Twelve about their power to loosen or bind sins.

And here are the 23 verses that specify we are to confess: Bible, Revised Standard Version (umich.edu)

To your question above, there is somewhat of an hierarchical order with the Apostles and also with the young Church, so such decisions can be appealed, and this is carried over today.

 

[KW]

There are over 150 NT statements that trusting Jesus is all that is required for salvation.

We can discuss the scriptures above--for example--if you forgive a person's sin (John 20, but I do not) who "wins"?

How do you understand John 1:12, though, first?

Thanks.

The words FAITH ALONE occur once in the New Testament.

Here: James 2:24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Jesus gave the apostles, his Church, the authority to forgive sins. He didn't give that authority to you and I, only the successors of the apostles. He was speaking directly to them in John 14-20.

Re:
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Yes, we have the right. Grace enables us to be pleasing to God, but it doesn't force our cooperation. We choose whether to accept this free gift of grace by our actions.

Matt 10:22
And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

 

[KW]

Repent in a Greek lexicon is a change of mind. Thinking is not always feeling as you have it above.

If Jesus gave two believers the power to bind and loose, and they disagree on remitting someone's sin, whose decision becomes enacted?

Jesus gave Peter alone the keys to the Kingdom. Jesus chose a single final authority for the Church so we would be united in truth.

Jesus only started one Church and it speaks with a single voice. That's what Church councils are all about. You can read about the first church council in Acts 15. Note that although Paul was in Antioch he didn't even consider making a ruling on his own, he sought the opinion of the magisterium(Church leaders including Peter, whose vision from God gave us the answer in this case)

 

[paradox]

Jesus gave Peter alone the keys to the Kingdom. Jesus chose a single final authority for the Church so we would be united in truth.

Jesus only started one Church and it speaks with a single voice.

Jesus also said:

Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three;

Luke 12:51-52

 

[KW]

Jesus also said:

Luke 12:51-52

That's referring to those in the Church vs. those outside.

John 17
16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isaiah 53 would be one of a number of examples.

You already know my answer to this, since we have discussed it many times. Isaiah 53 is about Israel, not the messiah. There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh that describes the Messiah as a sacrifice for sins.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Again, you are ignoring Jesus' message to the Twelve about their power to loosen or bind sins.

And here are the 23 verses that specify we are to confess: Bible, Revised Standard Version (umich.edu)

To your question above, there is somewhat of an hierarchical order with the Apostles and also with the young Church, so such decisions can be appealed, and this is carried over today.

Thank you for the details, but you didn't address my question:

If remission of sin is given to others besides God, and two apostles disagree regarding forgiveness, is the person forgiven?

The answer is why I think this another Roman doctrine not in the correct scriptural context.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The words FAITH ALONE occur once in the New Testament.

Here: James 2:24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Jesus gave the apostles, his Church, the authority to forgive sins. He didn't give that authority to you and I, only the successors of the apostles. He was speaking directly to them in John 14-20.

Re:
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Yes, we have the right. Grace enables us to be pleasing to God, but it doesn't force our cooperation. We choose whether to accept this free gift of grace by our actions.

Matt 10:22
And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Perhaps in the NT you've seen faith alone one time, however, there are over 150 statements on receiving salvation in the NT, and ALL of them are "trust Jesus". I believe the Bible is univocal so you'd need to reconcile James 2 and etc. with clear statements that no works are needed (Rom 4:1-4, Rom 6:23, etc.)

If you are correct about how we receive grace (actions instead of trust) then someone can become inert and lose their salvation, which also means that eternal life is temporary--something that is illogical.

God loves us an gifts us with eternal life per the Bible. Doing actions to earn something makes a free gift no longer a gift (Romans 11).

 

[BilliardsBall]

Jesus gave Peter alone the keys to the Kingdom. Jesus chose a single final authority for the Church so we would be united in truth.

Jesus only started one Church and it speaks with a single voice. That's what Church councils are all about. You can read about the first church council in Acts 15. Note that although Paul was in Antioch he didn't even consider making a ruling on his own, he sought the opinion of the magisterium(Church leaders including Peter, whose vision from God gave us the answer in this case)

So you do not take the scripture literally? Only a council can forgive sin?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You already know my answer to this, since we have discussed it many times. Isaiah 53 is about Israel, not the messiah. There is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh that describes the Messiah as a sacrifice for sins.

An impossibility since we have to do bizarre things to make Israel "with a rich man in his tomb and between sinners at his death", or a singular man of sorrow, or someone whom Israel disbelieves in general (verse 1)!

Your comments about Jesus bring to mind IS 53:1.

 

[TreeOfLife]

The words FAITH ALONE occur once in the New Testament.

Here: James 2:24 As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

Jesus gave the apostles, his Church, the authority to forgive sins. He didn't give that authority to you and I, only the successors of the apostles. He was speaking directly to them in John 14-20.

Re:
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Yes, we have the right. Grace enables us to be pleasing to God, but it doesn't force our cooperation. We choose whether to accept this free gift of grace by our actions.

Matt 10:22
And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

As we are all commanded to forgive others. Isn't that forgiving sins. Also in doing that free us for moving on in life.

 

[KW]

Thank you for the details, but you didn't address my question:

If remission of sin is given to others besides God, and two apostles disagree regarding forgiveness, is the person forgiven?

The answer is why I think this another Roman doctrine not in the correct scriptural context.

Jesus told the apostles: As the Father sent me, I am sending you.

 

[KW]

As we are all commanded to forgive others. Isn't that forgiving sins. Also in doing that free us for moving on in life.

Jesus gave the apostles his authority to forgive sins,

When we forgive others we are forgiving them for sins committed against us, not all their sins.

 

[KW]

So you do not take the scripture literally? Only a council can forgive sin?

Only those granted this authority by Christ. This means the apostles and their successors.

 

[KW]

Perhaps in the NT you've seen faith alone one time, however, there are over 150 statements on receiving salvation in the NT, and ALL of them are "trust Jesus".

Start with Matt 7:21.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.