Leviticus

[Pah]

Wow your right I can't believe that jesus told us not to follow the teachings of God oh no my faith is wrong I have been wrong all this time.....

in case you can' t tell I'm being sarcastic

you violated one rule of law when dealing with the bible

you took the passage out of context. but it into context and Mark 7 makes sense

It was Mark 7 to which I refered. It seems to give no justification for "why are maniacal Christians fighting the Constitution to include the Ten Commandments - why are the prophecies spewed throughout the New Testament"

-pah-

 

[Pah]

Take over? How are Christians trying to take over, if anything they are being asked to stop being Christians and asserting their beliefs. In other words, be a Christian in name but foregoing one's Christian identity.

You must have been asleep during the election returns. Christianity is, through theocracy, trying to take over the country.

We, as a country, have never persecuted Christians for their beliefs and there are no "hate crimes" that I've heard of. The "persecution" in this country procedes from Christians.

We would very much like to be left alone, but since that is not possible in a Christian worldview, we must assert our rights - our secular rights - the rights that have primacy over sectarian obilgations.

Your rights to freedom of faith stop when it bloodies our noses - throw your punches within your congregations and not in society.

-pah-

 

[logos]

Walk a mile in the persons shoes you are analysing before you attempt to analyze.

Become a Unitarian?

 

[logos]

We would very much like to be left alone, but since that is not possible in a Christian worldview, we must assert our rights - our secular rights - the rights that have primacy over sectarian obilgations.

Your rights to freedom of faith stop when it bloodies our noses - throw your punches within your congregations and not in society.

-pah-

How do your rights have primacy over sectarian obligations?

How are we bloodying your noses?

 

[Pah]

How do your rights have primacy over sectarian obligations?

How are we bloodying your noses?

Because we did not put the Constitution on the altar of God. It, the Constitution, stands alone as the ultimate authority. The fact that our nation recognizes freedom of religion makes religion subservient to the state. Should the state, such as the Soviet Union or China, limit religion, you would have limited expression of religion. If, as an article of faith, you want to practise what you consider a obligation, i.e., proselytization, molding a society in your worldview, it would only be within the laws of the state.

You have doubts that our state limits freedom of religious expression? I would think you would be aware of the limits of splaying the Ten Commandments wherever you heart desires. Perhaps you are not aware of the road built through sacred ground or the prohibition of hallucinogens in religious ceremony that the state forced on religion? Perhaps you've heard of Bob Jones Univeristy where a school policy based on religious grounds was changed to avoid the threat of removal of tax benefit? Perhaps you've heard of the limits placed upon passing out religious tracts?

Do you really think you have a free ride in religious expression? that you can willy-nilly follow your interpretation of what your God say? What you do have is at the discretion of the state. It has always been this way and your Christian history should have show you that.

Because our state allows you freedom of religious expression and allows me the same freedoms (which include the negation of religion) you bloody our nose every time you force your view upon us.

-pah-

 

[linwood]

Become a Unitarian?

Touche":biglaugh:

 

[Deut 13:1]

I'm going to use this "letter" I found on the internet to illustrate why I think Leviticus should not be used by Christians to condemn to judge anyone.

The problem with James Kaufman (the author) is very simple. He is ignorant and he tries to make fun of something that he doesn't obviously have any clue about. For him to have any clue about the Torah commandments, he would first have need to study it, as well as the very large body of Jewish law interpreting the Torah commandments. Example: the Talmud and commentaries. However, if I were to make a guess about Mr. Kaufman, I would guess that he doesn't even read hebrew nor Aramaic which he would need to know in order to read the Talmud. Thus, Mr. Kaufman would do better to start learning the Hebew alphabet before asking idiotic questions. Nevertheless, here are the answers (not my own) to them. They contain some hebrew terms, which any serious student of Torah laws would know. I assume neither Mr. Kaufman nor Maize is familiar with those terms, but I really don't feel like translating them or explaining them, since it would be a waste of my time anyway.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors complain to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

If you are Jewish, you shouldn't be offering any sacrifices outside of the Beth Hamikdash (Temple); so the question doesn't get to the real root of the problem. Otherwise, you're a Ben Noach and fully entitled to offer free will offerings anywhere within reason. In such a case, perhaps a mutually pleasant arrangement could be made between the two of you in a civil, and law-abiding manner.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting college. Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law ?

Selling people into slavery was put under gezerah (decree) at least in the times of Rabbi Yosef Caro who's Shulchan Aruch makes the ownership of slaves halachically impossible. The question, though well intendtioned, is today meaningless. Which you would know, if you had any minimal education about the Torah.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.

Perhaps the laws of tacharat hamishpacha, laws of family purity; which observant Jews have observed for at least 3,314 years, would help here. That is, of course, if you're Jewish. But if you're not Jewish then the law in question does not apply to you and so the question becomes meaningless.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with tham due to the weather?

For the same reason that you can't sell your daughter as a slave. Because a gezerah exists on slavehood.

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?

First off, we have to know if you're neighbour's Jewish. If he is, there could be a problem. If he isn't, then his not keeping Shabbat is actually in compliance with Torah which forbids Gentiles from keeping the Sabbath. However, assuming that your neighbour was indeed born to a Jewish mother, Tractate Shabbat clearly states what process must happen before a person who is desecrating the Sabbath is to be punished for the desecration. First, the witness must be informed that what they are doing is an act of melocha [scecific act prohibited to be performed on the Sabbath], they must then continue to perform the act. Then, they must be brought to the attention of the Sanhedrin, etc. Since there is no Sanhedrin at this time, you cannot and should not do anything beyond reminding them that their actions are an act of creative work prohibited on the Sabbath.

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than

homosexuality. I don't agree. I mean, a shrimp just isn't the same as a you-know-what. Can you settle this?

An abomination is an abomination is an abomination. Refer to the Jewish dietary laws which do not allow the consumption of shellfish. Then look up the laws of family purity (if you haven't already [refer #3]) and see that homosexual behaviour is equally prohibited and is equally 'not done.'

Of course, as far as Gentiles are concerned, they are not prohibited from eating shellfish. They are, however, prohibited from engaging in homosexual activity, as laid down in the Sheva Mitsvoth B'nei Noach [Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noach], affirmed in TB Sanhedrin 59b and ratified as halacha in the Mishne Torah: Hilchot Melachim u'Milchamoteichem 9:7.

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading

glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?

Why don't you try reading Leviticus 21:20, and the verses surrounding it, and answer this one for yourself. Keep in mind, that those verses only apply to Kohanim (Priestly tribes - descendants of Aaron). So unless you are a descendant of Aaron, there is really no wiggle room for you.

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop, but I'm not Catholic; is this ecumenical thing a sign that it's ok?

They should not die, but should regret their earlier mistake and let their hair grow. That is, of course, if they're Jewish. But if they're not Jewish then they have no reason to 'not shave the hair around their temples.'

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

You don't have to wear gloves: here's why: if you're a Gentile, then the laws of impurity do not apply to you at all. If you're Jewish, then if you touch pig's carcass, then all that will happen is that you'll have to wait until sunset, bathe, and then you're clean again to enter the Temple. But since the Temple isn't standing, it's a bit academic.

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing

garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Before answering the first point, we must know: (1) Is your uncle Jewish? and (2) Is your uncle's farm in the Land of Israel? If the answer to (1) and (2) are both 'yes' then there is indeed a problem. In such a case, your uncle should (1) regret his previous mistakes and (2) till up the zerayah [seeds] (TB Zerayim]. Otherwise, the prohibition of kilayim does not apply to your uncle, his farm, or his produce. As for the wife's garment, there's no halachic problem with it on the sounds of it. The Torah prohibition of shatnez applies only to garments made from material of different biological kingdoms. For example, wool [animal] and linen [plant.] Cotton and polyester is not a problem. Cursing and blaspheming a lot can be equally remedied by the farmer regretting his past deed, and stopping. Plain and simple.

I know you’re trying to be funny. Next time, though, try to find some questions that haven’t been answered in three thousand years.

Again, I didn't come up with these answers, as I wouldn't waste my time answering such stupid and idiotic questions.

 

[Deut 13:1]

lol...ok..ok.

1 Samuel 18:3-4
"And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt."

1Samuel 20:41
"...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David became great."

2 Samuel 1:26
"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."

1. I have never seen a person read so much trash into so few verses. You get 10 for a wild imagination.

2. The word ahava, love, has pretty much the same meaning as in English and is in no way reserved for sexual attraction. The famous verse "you shall love the Lord your G-d, with all your heart...." has the same word for love. Let me assure you, there is nothing sexual there.

3. Assuming, for a second, that all you say is true. What's the point? What's the conclusion? That homosexual acts are fine and dandy according to the bible? Is that what you are suggesting? Because the bible also describes many acts of murder, adultery, and G-d knows what. But a description is not an endorsement.

 

[Deut 13:1]

I can't explain it any better than I have already:

While the Old Testament’s ceremonial requirements are no longer binding, its moral requirements are. God may issue different ceremonies for use in different times and cultures, but his moral requirements are eternal and are binding on all cultures.

How is shellfish a ceremonial requirement?

 

[Deut 13:1]

But it is moral for a Jew to...

Buy slaves as long as they are gentile....Lev 25:44

The Torah gives you an outline of the rules on the treatment of slaves and the rules that they must follow.

I posted this above:

Selling people into slavery was put under gezerah (decree) at least in the times of Rabbi Yosef Caro who's Shulchan Aruch makes the ownership of slaves halachically impossible. The question, though well intendtioned, is today meaningless. Which you would know, if you had any minimal education about the Torah.

 

[pdoel]

Ok, since you asked.

I don't understand the contradiction in laws. Why are there different laws for Jews than for others?

Does that mean that if I'm not a Jew, and only abide by the "non-Jew" laws, I will go to heaven? If you are a Jew, and you abide most of the laws, but break a few of the "Jew only" laws, will you go to Hell?

Or, does it mean that all non-Jews are going to Hell regardless of whether they live by God's laws or not? In which case, why even bother if I'm condemned to Hell, whether I follow God or not?

Why would God contradict himself?

I will state my opinion on this matter. It is my opinion, that God loves all his creatures. Whether you are black, white, blind, deaf, rich, poor, Jewish, Muslim or Chrisitan. I think God has a plan that none of us can possibly fathom. Who are any of us to say we know all the truths? Anyone who says they do, if you ask me, is completely arrogant, and will have a rude awakening come judgement day.

I don't see how God could possibly put a creature in the Middle East, have that child raised as a Muslim, NEVER know Judaism, or Christianity, but live the best Muslim life they are taught, follow their God's laws to the end, but then be condemned for enternity, because they never knew Jesus (If Christianity turns out to be the one true religion).

I just don't buy that. Why God allows all these different religions? I have no idea. Is it to make all our faith that much stronger? Possibly. Is it to make each other question, or try and get a better understanding of God? Could be. I do not know. All I know is what my faith tells me. I realize that your faith has given you different answers, and I completely respect that.

What I don't respect, is someone, who has NO idea if their "truth" is correct, or if mine is, telling me how I should live my life. My faith has just as much relevance to my life, as yours does to yours. I'm not asking you to live according to my beliefs, and you have no right to ask that of me.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Ok, since you asked.

I don't understand the contradiction in laws. Why are there different laws for Jews than for others?

Does that mean that if I'm not a Jew, and only abide by the "non-Jew" laws, I will go to heaven? If you are a Jew, and you abide most of the laws, but break a few of the "Jew only" laws, will you go to Hell?

Or, does it mean that all non-Jews are going to Hell regardless of whether they live by God's laws or not? In which case, why even bother if I'm condemned to Hell, whether I follow God or not?

QUESTION #12 : One question which bothers me just a little is this. G-d is the Al-mighty and Supreme and Perfect Being. He is all loving and all True. I don't understand why He would choose a small group of people who would be obligated to observe all His 613 Commandments, and that a much larger group of people, say for example, the Chinese nation, does not have to observe these but only the Seven Noahide Commandments.
>R. S.

ANSWER : There is a mistaken impression here when you say "only" the Seven Noahide Laws. In the Written Torah, the Jewish Commandments are stated by G-d in greater detail, and the Noahide Commandments are stated by G-d in greater generality. (As an analogy, consider the beauty of a field of fresh snow, and the separate beauty of each individual snowflake.) When examined in terms of their specific requirements, the Noahide Commandments encompass many details, as do the Jewish Commandments. A very scholarly treatment of this contrast is covered in the book "The Seven Laws of Noah," by Aaron Lichtenstein.

In a general way, Gentiles are "only" responsible to G-d for following the Seven Commandments of Noah. In a particular way, each of the Seven Noahide Commandments encompasses numerous details, as to what specific actions are forbidden by each general prohibition, how the justice system should function, etc. To learn many practical details of the Noahide Laws, see the book "The Path of the Righteous Gentile," by Y. Rogalsky and C. Chlorfene. Also, there are a few additional righteous practices which the Gentile nations of antiquity voluntarily accepted to take upon themselves - see on our web page RIGHTEOUS TRADITION.

I will state my opinion on this matter. It is my opinion, that God loves all his creatures. Whether you are black, white, blind, deaf, rich, poor, Jewish, Muslim or Chrisitan. I think God has a plan that none of us can possibly fathom. Who are any of us to say we know all the truths? Anyone who says they do, if you ask me, is completely arrogant, and will have a rude awakening come judgement day.

I don't see how God could possibly put a creature in the Middle East, have that child raised as a Muslim, NEVER know Judaism, or Christianity, but live the best Muslim life they are taught, follow their God's laws to the end, but then be condemned for enternity, because they never knew Jesus (If Christianity turns out to be the one true religion).

I just don't buy that. Why God allows all these different religions? I have no idea. Is it to make all our faith that much stronger? Possibly. Is it to make each other question, or try and get a better understanding of God? Could be. I do not know. All I know is what my faith tells me. I realize that your faith has given you different answers, and I completely respect that.

What I don't respect, is someone, who has NO idea if their "truth" is correct, or if mine is, telling me how I should live my life. My faith has just as much relevance to my life, as yours does to yours. I'm not asking you to live according to my beliefs, and you have no right to ask that of me.

Well, thanks for your opinion, but as I said, as of right now, from your current postings, it doesn't avaluate to much, although you're doing better. Here is something I want you to do. I found almost all your questions answered by the Noahide people themselves at www.AskNoah.org go there, read about it, then come back with questions.

 

[pdoel]

Well, thanks for your opinion, but as I said, as of right now, from your current postings, it doesn't avaluate to much, although you're doing better. Here is something I want you to do. I found almost all your questions answered by the Noahide people themselves at www.AskNoah.org go there, read about it, then come back with questions.

Well, no offense, but I have the same feelings towards you and your post. I respect the fact that you follow the Judaism religion, however, I do not share your beliefs. Just because we have different beliefs, does not mean that we do not follow our own beliefs as we should.

Trying to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't follow your beliefs, in my opinion, doesn't help your case much.

I'd prefer to discuss ideas, rather than use cheap shots to try and gain credibility.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Trying to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about simply because I don't follow your beliefs, in my opinion, doesn't help your case much.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about because you don't follow them, I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about because you don't know them.

There are athiests on the forum (Duet 10:19) who know Torah and have studied it before posting their opinion. However, from you, I've yet to see any indictatoin you've studied or read the bible.

I'd prefer to discuss ideas, rather than use cheap shots to try and gain credibility.

Okay, and what ideas would you like to discuss? What did you think of the site? questions? comments?

 

[pdoel]

There are athiests on the forum (Duet 10:19) who know Torah and have studied it before posting their opinion. However, from you, I've yet to see any indictatoin you've studied or read the bible.

How much of the New Testament have you read? For my point of view, your points only focus on YOUR Bible. You need to keep in mind, that for most Christians, we seem to focus more on the New Testament.

I'll admit, I don't study the old testament as much as I do the new. Mainly because for us, things have changed.

I do realize that many sins are discussed in the old. That many laws are discussed. However, when we received Jesus Christ, all of that changed. As I state many, many times, John 3:16 says it all. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who shallever believith in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

So, for my religion, many of your points do not apply to me, or how I live my life. Most of your laws, you still follow because you have not yet been saved. While I do my best to follow the laws, I also realize that I have a new covenant with God. It doesn't give me carte blanche to do whatever I want. But, I do feel that God loves me, and that I'm exactly the person who wanted me to be. Even though I am gay.

I could be dead wrong in my beliefs, and I realize that. But my faith is strong, and my faith says God would not create me gay, and give me the ability to love and care for another, but then not want me to do so. Your laws say otherwise, and I completely respect that. What I don't respect, is when people try and keep me from living my life, based on THEIR views, without realizing mine are different.

I also don't respect people who love to tell others what to do, but don't follow those practices themselves.

 

[Deut 13:1]

How much of the New Testament have you read? For my point of view, your points only focus on YOUR Bible. You need to keep in mind, that for most Christians, we seem to focus more on the New Testament.

I read it once when I lost a poker hand to a Christian, I had 3 king, he had a straight. I didn't think I could lose, and he raised above what I had, so I told him (thinking I'd never have to do it) that I would read the NT if I lost.

I'll admit, I don't study the old testament as much as I do the new. Mainly because for us, things have changed.

Okay.

I do realize that many sins are discussed in the old. That many laws are discussed. However, when we received Jesus Christ, all of that changed. As I state many, many times, John 3:16 says it all. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who shallever believith in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Yes, well you first have to prove your belief, unless you don't think you can. Maybe start with this thread here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23224
It's awfully (sp?) quiet in there about those messianic prophecies.

So, for my religion, many of your points do not apply to me, or how I live my life. Most of your laws, you still follow because you have not yet been saved. While I do my best to follow the laws, I also realize that I have a new covenant with God. It doesn't give me carte blanche to do whatever I want. But, I do feel that God loves me, and that I'm exactly the person who wanted me to be. Even though I am gay.

Now, this, you, raise interesting questions...

Why must G-d conform to your beliefs? Wouldn't it be true, as he created you, that you're on his terms of the contract?

I could be dead wrong in my beliefs, and I realize that. But my faith is strong, and my faith says God would not create me gay, and give me the ability to love and care for another, but then not want me to do so. Your laws say otherwise, and I completely respect that. What I don't respect, is when people try and keep me from living my life, based on THEIR views, without realizing mine are different.

Well, then do what no other has done here, prove your point with scripture backing you up. Explain how homosexuality, according to the bible is wrong. Saying people are hypocrits doesn't change the fact that it's still wrong.

I also don't respect people who love to tell others what to do, but don't follow those practices themselves.

I agree... To an extent. The problem is when you start taking laws that apply to a direct group of people and apply them to the masses.

 

[pdoel]

I read it once when I lost a poker hand to a Christian, I had 3 king, he had a straight. I didn't think I could lose, and he raised above what I had, so I told him (thinking I'd never have to do it) that I would read the NT if I lost.

In my house, two queens beat a straight any day. (Sorry, line from Will & Grace that fits well here. Ha ha.)

Yes, well you first have to prove your belief, unless you don't think you can. Maybe start with this thread here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23224
It's awfully (sp?) quiet in there about those messianic prophecies.

Actually, I feel no need to prove my belief. To you, or anyone. I answer to God, and God alone. I do not need to prove anything to you. In fact, Satan once tried to test Jesus, and Jesus refused to play along.

Why must G-d conform to your beliefs? Wouldn't it be true, as he created you, that you're on his terms of the contract?

I never said God must conform to my beliefs. My beliefs have conformed to what my faith has taught me. It's not Scripture, or my minister, or anyone else who has changed my beliefs. But it has been my experience through prayer, my faith, and my relationship with God, that has formed my beliefs. God has not conformed to me. I have conformed to Him.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Too many years ago I use to help train non-violent civil rights demonstrators.

What, specifically, do you do if/when you are ... ?
What, specifically, do you do if/when the person next to you is ... ?​

I saw many brave uncertainty, harrassment, attack, and arrest aided solely by their commitment and a sense of what, specifically, to do.

Ritual is calming, seductive, powerful. In its commentary on Leviticus, Etz Hayim notes:

Ritual is a way of giving voice to our ultimate values. Each of us needs a sense of holiness to navigate the relentless secularity of our lives. For the Israelites of Biblical times, it must have been gratifying to know what to so when they wanted to approach God at crucial moments of their lives or in gratitude.​

From my perspective as a naturalist, I see a people taking seriously the command "ye shall be holy" and doing their very best to evolve the ethics and the rituals that might facilitate this effort. They are to be commended.

At the same time, their attitudes about many things were clearly insular and backward. Binyamin aside, the reason for not killing homosexuals is not the absence of the Temple or the Sanhedrin but, rather, an understanding of homosexuality informed by science and inspired by a respect for diversity.

Again: the Judeo-Christian homosexual can look at the Bible - be it Torah, Tanakh, or OT/NT - and come to one of two conclusions: that s/he is seriously flawed or that the text is seriously flawed. I look at the same document, reject its homophobia, and marvel at its insights.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Binyamin aside, the reason for not killing homosexuals is not the absence of the Temple or the Sanhedrin but, rather, an understanding of homosexuality informed by science and inspired by a respect for diversity.

That's highly debatable. Although I did read somewhere that some modern orthodox rabbi's maintain that if homosexuality is indeed genetic, that they wouldn't be held responsible when Moshiach returns and sets up the courts. They still maintain that it is wrong to do the acts, but the orientation, well... there is a debate on that.

 

[Green Gaia]

Again: the Judeo-Christian homosexual can look at the Bible - be it Torah, Tanakh, or OT/NT - and come to one of two conclusions: that s/he is seriously flawed or that the text is seriously flawed. I look at the same document, reject its homophobia, and marvel at its insights.

:clap