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Leviticus and Homosexuality

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
Lol. That is a good point. I don't care about what Baptists or Calvinists like Sproul think about Leviticus. The only time I'm concerned is when they try to use their faulty theology to persecute people.

That said, I have seen Catholic apologists try to do the same thing, but I disagree with them and think they need to stop their cozying up to the Evangelical right. It's shameful and the Catholic laity has largely rejected it. Catholics are known to be the most progressive denomination in general in America when it comes to this subject as evidenced by the fact that Catholics support LGBT rights in higher numbers than Americans in general, but many members of the hierarchy are missing the point and our conservative branch is acting like heartless scoundrels. They need to remind themselves of the Corporal and Spiritual Acts of Mercy. However, there are LGBT-accepting members of the clergy and religious orders. So the tide is starting to change.

Way I see it, Baptist have just as much authority about speaking about the principles and teachings of Jesus Christ as Rush Limbaugh as about speaking about the principles and teachings of Karl Marx.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
:facepalm: The issue wasn't one of Baptist v. Catholic, but that saint_frankenstein used the all inclusive "we" in describing Christian theology:
"You obviously don't understand Christian theology. We do not follow the Mosaic Laws because we are under a New Covenant."
and his
"It is simply not a part of Christianity to follow the Mosaic Law"
So, I pointed out, there is no such all-inclusive "we"; Baptist theology being one of the notable exceptions.
Get it?

Christians follow Christ. That includes his injunction not to judge people or throw rocks at people who you think messed up. I really do not know what Baptist are doing but it does not seem to me they are following the injunctions Christ gave us. In fact they seem to be doing the opposite.

Capiche?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Genesis 19:4-8 "But before they could go to bed, the men of the city surrounded the house — young and old, everyone from every neighborhood of S’dom. They called Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to stay with you tonight? Bring them out to us! We want to have sex with them!” Lot went out to them and stood in the doorway, closing the door behind him, and said, “Please, my brothers, don’t do such a wicked thing. Look here, I have two daughters who are virgins. Please, let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them what seems good to you; but don’t do anything to these men, since they are guests in my house.” (CJB)

This is the way the Complete Jewish Bible translates Gen 19:4-8. I am sure that the Jews can translate their own scripture.

It is clear that the inhabitants of Sodom were depraved homosexuals who were intent on gang raping the "men" (angels) who came to the city to rescue Lot's family and to carry out God's judgment on them.

Lot, in offering his daughters as a sexual substitute, was an effort to side track the mob from their evil intent. Guests in someone's home came under the protection of the host. In offering his daughters to homosexuals, he was pretty confident that they would not be interested in having sex with women. They were perverts whom God was intent on wiping off the planet. If God hated the perverted practices of the Sodomites back then, what makes us believe that he accepts it today, just because humans have lowered their standards?

God's standards do not change.

Any attempt to sanitize the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, as merely inhospitable, fall way short.

God does not condemn homosexuals but has forbidden homosexual practices.
You cannot make the Bible say anything else. :sorry1:
 

ScuzManiac

Active Member
Once again, an academic paper on the subject, since Scuz thinks that I'm the only one who needs to back up his argument with sources: http://www.jeramyt.org/papers/paulcybl.html

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

Source: Vatican.VA

The church’s message to homosexual persons is the same
message it proclaims to all people: Repent and believe the
Gospel! All human beings are born with a sinful nature that
results in sinful thoughts,words and actions.Homosexuality is
but one of many sinful situations human beings encounter in
this life.

Source: The Lutheran Church, LCSM.org

The law of chastity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) states that any sexual relations outside of opposite-sex marriage are contrary to the will of God and in principle forbids homosexual behaviour. Violations of the law of chastity may result in church discipline.

Source: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Wiki

And finally...

To answer your question about Romans. Read Romans 1:27-30.

It blatantly calls homosexuals "haters of God."

Hope this helps. If I had more time, I would cite more sources.

But the biggest source to me is what's right in front of me.

1. Take it literally
2. Don't take any of it literally
3. Cherry pick

*The sources I cited are merely there to prove a point from earlier. 99% of religious groups in the world agree....

Homosexuality is a sin and they take the messages conveyed in The Bible quite literally.

Also, show 99% of people in the world the contents of The Bible and they will most likely agree as well.

In fact, based on my calculations, roughly 8-9 out of 10 people on this board agree.

There is no hidden meaning or context. It's right there in front of you.

So, with that being said, it looks like I'm in the majority and I should be the one asking YOU to prove something.

All you are doing is showing me the opinions of 1. Gay men and women 2. Your own opinions 3. One other person on the board's opinion

**This so called academic paper you linked....was written by a teacher that advocates gay rights. Can we get something a little more credible?
You know, perhaps something from an actual denomination? A reputable scholar? Anything along those lines?
 
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ScuzManiac

Active Member
Genesis 19:4-8 "But before they could go to bed, the men of the city surrounded the house — young and old, everyone from every neighborhood of S’dom. They called Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to stay with you tonight? Bring them out to us! We want to have sex with them!” Lot went out to them and stood in the doorway, closing the door behind him, and said, “Please, my brothers, don’t do such a wicked thing. Look here, I have two daughters who are virgins. Please, let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them what seems good to you; but don’t do anything to these men, since they are guests in my house.” (CJB)

This is the way the Complete Jewish Bible translates Gen 19:4-8. I am sure that the Jews can translate their own scripture.

It is clear that the inhabitants of Sodom were depraved homosexuals who were intent on gang raping the "men" (angels) who came to the city to rescue Lot's family and to carry out God's judgment on them.

Lot, in offering his daughters as a sexual substitute, was an effort to side track the mob from their evil intent. Guests in someone's home came under the protection of the host. In offering his daughters to homosexuals, he was pretty confident that they would not be interested in having sex with women. They were perverts whom God was intent on wiping off the planet. If God hated the perverted practices of the Sodomites back then, what makes us believe that he accepts it today, just because humans have lowered their standards?

God's standards do not change.

Any attempt to sanitize the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, as merely inhospitable, fall way short.

God does not condemn homosexuals but has forbidden homosexual practices.
You cannot make the Bible say anything else. :sorry1:

100% right. From my understanding, it's NOT a sin to BE homosexual....

But it is a sin to act on it whether it be through sex or marriage.

I'm glad someone that ACTUALLY studies The Bible understands....

Meanwhile, people that haven't read The Bible or just started months ago...

Sit here and argue about whether snakes actually talked or God hates gays.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
There is really nothing unclear here if you believe G-D in the Torah.


G-D said homosexual behavior is an abomination.

There is no conclusive evidence that anyone is born homosexual. No one knows what causes it. I think it's a psychological disorder but I can't prove it.

Just because some consider it "fashionable" and that hollywood inserts a homosexual scene in just about every scene doesn't make it less immoral.

Now if someone is practicing homosexual behavior do I believe he should be cut off? No.

However, based on G-D in the Torah, it is a sin and it's still a sin.

G-D doesn't make mistakes. People do.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Well...I understand that. But what if two young men fall in love with each other? What if they kiss without having sex? I don't think that a kiss is something lustful; it's something definitely romantic

What if someone falls in love with their mother? What about if someone falls in love with their sibling?

What if someone falls in love with a 11 year old girl?

Just because you "fall in love" within itself doesn't make immoral behavior moral.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
We need someone who is an expert in Biblical Hebrew and the historical context those verses were written in to tell us what they were actually saying, in this thread.

Regardless, Christians do not follow the Levitical Law.

You really don't need an expert.

G-D clearly says in the passages that if a man lies with a man like he does a woman it's an abomination.

The passages were already quote here.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
While that may be true...

It's kind of hard to get around this JUST because we live in a different day and age.

Leviticus 18:22

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.


and

Leviticus 20:13

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.


If this is supposed to change just because we live in a different time...

Then how do we know what else should or shouldn't change?

And if I remember correctly...

Didn't God kill everyone in Sodom because it was inhabited by homosexuals?

And I would think that just because the New Testament doesn't mention homosexuality...

It doesn't mean that it's okay all of a sudden. Just saying.

^this
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Well it seems to get a lot wrong, doesn't it? It got homosexuality wrong, it got the treatment of women wrong, the treatment of nonbelievers wrong, rainbows being sent by God wrong (they aren't), it got the Great Flood wrong and so on and so forth. Maybe it also got the existence of God wrong, too. :)

The Bible was written by people. Backward, primitive people in a male-dominated society (this is why it doesn't say 'nor shall a woman lie with a woman as with a man, women simply didn't enter into the equation). There was no God or Divinity involved.

G-D doesn't get things wrong, people do.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm aware of how some Christians make divisions between ritual and moral law in the Mosaic Law, and use that as a reason to say (male) homosexuality is wrong. The biggest problem is what the actual focus of those verses are. I hope RabbiO or another knowledgeable person who knows the Hebrew and background will fill us in.

I know the hebrew and the background. The passages posted in leviticus.

G-D considers homosexual behavior an abomination.

In fact, if you look at the list in the same chapter regarding forbidden relationships, homosexual has the added description of it being an abomination.

It's pretty clear.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
There is really nothing unclear here if you believe G-D in the Torah.


G-D said homosexual behavior is an abomination...G-D doesn't make mistakes. People do.

He also supposedly said that rabbits chew their cud and that bats are birds. Is that a mistake?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
What if someone falls in love with their mother? What about if someone falls in love with their sibling?

What if someone falls in love with a 11 year old girl?

Just because you "fall in love" within itself doesn't make immoral behavior moral.

Well, these are undoubtedly symptom of sickness. Because it is not normal to fall in love with someone of your family, whereas the world is full of people to meet-
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Well, these are undoubtedly symptom of sickness. Because it is not normal to fall in love with someone of your family, whereas the world is full of people to meet-

Homosexuality is caused (at least in current favoured theories) by an excess of certain epigenes passed from mother to child during the child's development in the womb. These female epigenes, whose purpose is to instruct the DNA to be attracted to/find arousal in males, become part of a male's DNA and the result is a propsensity toward homosexual behaviour.

It is not, as you so perjoratively put it a 'sickness'.

Paedophilia within the catholic church, however, is.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Homosexuality is caused (at least in current favoured theories) by an excess of certain epigenes passed from mother to child during the child's development in the womb. These female epigenes, whose purpose is to instruct the DNA to be attracted to/find arousal in males, become part of a male's DNA and the result is a propsensity toward homosexual behaviour.

It is not, as you so perjoratively put it a 'sickness'.

Paedophilia within the catholic church, however, is.

That is your guess.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

Source: Vatican.VA

The church’s message to homosexual persons is the same
message it proclaims to all people: Repent and believe the
Gospel! All human beings are born with a sinful nature that
results in sinful thoughts,words and actions.Homosexuality is
but one of many sinful situations human beings encounter in
this life.

Source: The Lutheran Church, LCSM.org

The law of chastity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) states that any sexual relations outside of opposite-sex marriage are contrary to the will of God and in principle forbids homosexual behaviour. Violations of the law of chastity may result in church discipline.

Source: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Wiki

Those aren't the Bible. I know what the Catholic Catechism says about it and I find the Church's teachings on sexual matters to be deeply flawed, so I disagree. And why the hell would I care about what Lutherans and Mormons have to say about it?!

And finally...

To answer your question about Romans. Read Romans 1:27-30.

It blatantly calls homosexuals "haters of God."

No, it doesn't. I even posted an academic paper that refutes that. Go read it. I posted it twice.

Hope this helps.

Not at all.

If I had more time, I would cite more sources.

Your next source better be an examination of the Biblical texts that place them in context and show us what those words mean in the original languages.

But the biggest source to me is what's right in front of me.

1. Take it literally
2. Don't take any of it literally
3. Cherry pick

The only one cherry picking here is you.

*The sources I cited are merely there to prove a point from earlier. 99% of religious groups in the world agree....

I'm not asking about what sects believe. I want to hear about what the Bible actually says.

Homosexuality is a sin and they take the messages conveyed in The Bible quite literally.

I'm not convinced and you're doing a **** poor job of trying to convinced me.

Also, show 99% of people in the world the contents of The Bible and they will most likely agree as well.

Keep your fallacies to yourself please. We're not talking about opinion polls, we're discussing what the Bible actually says.

In fact, based on my calculations, roughly 8-9 out of 10 people on this board agree.

Again, keep your fallacies to yourself.

There is no hidden meaning or context. It's right there in front of you.

That it's talking about pagan sex practices, yes.

So, with that being said, it looks like I'm in the majority and I should be the one asking YOU to prove something.

You're ever so fallacious. You haven't proved squat.

All you are doing is showing me the opinions of 1. Gay men and women 2. Your own opinions 3. One other person on the board's opinion

No, I'm showing you research, which you are blatantly ignoring because you know you have no real argument. You're acting quite shameful.

**This so called academic paper you linked....was written by a teacher that advocates gay rights. Can we get something a little more credible?

Oh, I'm sorry. I'll post articles from anti-gay experts instead. Would you like to hear from people like Professor Robert Gagnon, who is allied with hate groups like Americans For Truth About Homosexuality (run by the noted closet case, Peter LaBarbera), instead? I'm sure you'd enjoy it.

You know, perhaps something from an actual denomination? A reputable scholar? Anything along those lines?

The paper I posted is from a professor who argues on the grounds of history. You have posted nothing of the sort.
 
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