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Leviticus and Homosexuality

ScuzManiac

Active Member
I didn't ask you. And your answer had nothing to do with my question. Thanks anyway.

But you asked on a public forum?

If you wanted to ask him/her specifically, you should've private messaged them.

Anyways, back on topic.

If I WERE religious....

I would think that just because something isn't in the New Testament doesn't mean that it should be forgotten about. I don't see how something could be SO wrong at one point in time in the eye's of God that someone deserves to die for it only for it to change in the future. So, those people died for nothing?

I don't think so. The Christian God hates homosexuality. If you read The Bible and you follow this religion closely then there is simply no getting around it.

That is, unless you're one of those people that do in fact cherry pick and say that certain things should be taken literally while others should not....

It's kind of like college. You either do it or you don't. I hate when people are in the middle especially when these are the same people that bash on me for not being religious at all. At least I go 100% and don't pick and choose.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
But you asked on a public forum?

If you wanted to ask him/her specifically, you should've private messaged them.

Anyways, back on topic.

Ok. Next time, I'll quote the person I intend to converse with (as I did), and ignore everyone else who wants to pretend they know what the conversation is about, and where it should go.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I would think that just because something isn't in the New Testament doesn't mean that it should be forgotten about. I don't see how something could be SO wrong at one point in time in the eye's of God that someone deserves to die for it only for it to change in the future. So, those people died for nothing?

Jesus specifically refuted major parts of the Law, such as the death penalty for sins when He stopped the people from stoning the woman in adultery. You have to remember that many part of the Law just don't have anything to do with us today, such not wearing mixed fabrics or the laws about unclean food.

Also, I've heard that the death penalty was a very rare thing in Israelite society because they had very lofty requirements for a person to be sentenced to it.

I don't think so. The Christian God hates homosexuality. If you read The Bible and you follow this religion closely then there is simply no getting around it.

The Bible simply doesn't say anything about homosexuality in general or committed gay relationships. Such concepts would've been foreign to the writers of the Bible.

That is, unless you're one of those people that do in fact cherry pick and say that certain things should be taken literally while others should not....

Nope. It's just about being knowledgeable and being aware of context and theology. :)

It's kind of like college. You either do it or you don't. I hate when people are in the middle especially when these are the same people that bash on me for not being religious at all. At least I go 100% and don't pick and choose.

Christians never followed all the OT Laws. We're commanded not to, both by Jesus and Paul.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I forgot to mention that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with homosexuality. God gives us the reasons He destroyed those cities and it doesn't mention sexual matters at all here:

49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it. Ezekiel 16:49-50

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+16&version=RSVCE
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
As a Catholic, I don't believe any interpretation is as valid as another.
And I would surprised if you did; however, those who hold interpretations contrary to your own would certainly maintain that their interpretation is just as, and perhaps more, valid than yours.

We have a clear definition of what Christianity is and we don't accept every that calls themselves Christians as Christians.
Well, clear to your mind perhaps. And, of course, you don't have to accept everyone who that calls themselves Christians as Christians, just as they don't have to accept you as a true Christian, :shrug:

But they are free to call themselves that.
Right, just as you are. ;)

Anyway, the only group connected to Christianity that follows the Mosaic Law is Messianic Judaism, who are somewhere inbetween Judaism and Christianity and in their beliefs and practices. It is simply not a part of Christianity to follow the Mosaic Law. That debate was settled in the early centuries of Christianity.
At least not your brand of Christianity. However, there are others who do. Take a look at the following samples from various Christian sources.
"In 1 Peter 1.15-16 the Apostle Peter says, “but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” That is a direct quote from Leviticus 11.44, which is then repeated several times such as in Leviticus 19.2. In seminary circles this is called the “Levitical Holiness Code” from chapters 17-27. It mainly deals with the idea of sanctification, the idea of holiness affecting how one lives in the covenant community.
source

_________________________________________________________________

"There are abominations that did not apply only to Israel but to everyone else also. Again, let's look at Leviticus.

Lev. 18:22-30, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. 23 Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion. 24 Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled 25 ‘For the land has become defiled, therefore I have visited its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants. 26 But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you 27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled); 28 so that the land may not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you. 29 ‘For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people. 30 ‘Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the Lord your God.’"

What abominations is Lev. 18:22-30 speaking of? Contextually, chapter 17 is about blood atonement procedures, so that is for Israel--not for everyone. In Chapter 18 God says to Israel, "You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan where I am bringing you;" (Lev. 18:3). So, now instead of it applying only to Israel, God mentions things that are done by Egypt and the land of Canaan. What were the things those nations did? The chapter contains the following.

Lev. 18:6-18, don't uncover the nakedness of various relatives.
Lev. 18:19, don't have sexual relations with woman on her period
Lev. 18:20, don't have intercourse with your neighbor's wife
Lev. 18:21, don't offer children to Molech
Lev. 18:22, don't lie with a male as with a female
Lev. 18:23 don't have intercourse with animals.

So, we see there are requirements in Leviticus only for the Israelites, and there are lists of abominations spoken of that were for the non-Israelites as well. It is in the latter group that homosexuality is listed. It is a mistake for people to mix topics intended only for Israel with topics that included the non-Israelites. Furthermore, when we see that the New Testament condemns the idea of homosexuality in Romans 1:26-27, we could see the continuity between Old Testament moral law and New Testament moral law.
source

All Christians are indeed required by God to obey His moral law, even that which He gave in the Old Testament.

source

_____________________________________________________________

"Many times when I enter a debate with fellow Christians and present verses from the Old Testament to them about some of life's laws and issues that were given to the Jews from GOD Almighty, they immediately give me answers such as "Oh, this is an old testament law that we Christians don't have to follow...." I find that to be quite an interesting statement.

Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament: "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled."
source

_________________________________________________________

From a Baptist publication

"How do we know for certain that sodomy is a sin?

Because God's word declares it to be a sin, over and over again. One of the first times "Sodom" occurs in the Bible God sends us a sound warning: "But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." (Gen. 13:13) In Genesis 18:20, we are told that the sin of Sodom is "very grievous." Then in Genesis 19:4-7 we read of a case where the Sodomites seek sexual relations with a total stranger! Shortly after this incident, God destroys their entire city because He couldn't find even ten righteous people dwelling there.

"Later, in the book of Leviticus, some very sharp warnings are given about sodomy. Leviticus 18:22 says, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Then Leviticus 20:13 says, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Webster defines an "abomination" as "extreme hatred" and "detestation." That's how God feels about sodomites.
source
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Yes, I'm aware of how some Christians make divisions between ritual and moral law in the Mosaic Law, and use that as a reason to say (male) homosexuality is wrong. The biggest problem is what the actual focus of those verses are. I hope RabbiO or another knowledgeable person who knows the Hebrew and background will fill us in.
 
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CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
At least not your brand of Christianity. However, there are others who do.

And you somehow think it is rational to argue Baptist beliefs with a Catholic? I for one do not give two ****ing sh-ts as to what the Baptists believe on any issue whether it be gay marriage, dancing or the color of my shoes. Get it?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
And you somehow think it is rational to argue Baptist beliefs with a Catholic? I for one do not give two ****ing sh-ts as to what the Baptists believe on any issue whether it be gay marriage, dancing or the color of my shoes. Get it?

Lol. That is a good point. I don't care about what Baptists or Calvinists like Sproul think about Leviticus. The only time I'm concerned is when they try to use their faulty theology to persecute people.

That said, I have seen Catholic apologists try to do the same thing, but I disagree with them and think they need to stop their cozying up to the Evangelical right. It's shameful and the Catholic laity has largely rejected it. Catholics are known to be the most progressive denomination in general in America when it comes to this subject as evidenced by the fact that Catholics support LGBT rights in higher numbers than Americans in general, but many members of the hierarchy are missing the point and our conservative branch is acting like heartless scoundrels. They need to remind themselves of the Corporal and Spiritual Acts of Mercy. However, there are LGBT-accepting members of the clergy and religious orders. So the tide is starting to change.
 

ScuzManiac

Active Member
Ok. Next time, I'll quote the person I intend to converse with (as I did), and ignore everyone else who wants to pretend they know what the conversation is about, and where it should go.

Just because you quote someone else, doesn't mean others won't chime in.

And sure, next time you can ignore me. That sounds perfect!

]Jesus specifically refuted major parts of the Law, such as the death penalty for sins when He stopped the people from stoning the woman in adultery.[/B] You have to remember that many part of the Law just don't have anything to do with us today, such not wearing mixed fabrics or the laws about unclean food.

Also, I've heard that the death penalty was a very rare thing in Israelite society because they had very lofty requirements for a person to be sentenced to it.



The Bible simply doesn't say anything about homosexuality in general or committed gay relationships. Such concepts would've been foreign to the writers of the Bible.

1. I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand?

2. But The Bible does say a lot about homosexuality?
 

ScuzManiac

Active Member
We're talking about Leviticus and one of the verses seems to call for the death penalty.



It doesn't.

Hm, I thought the thread was started to specifically discuss Leviticus and Homosexuality but anyways....

The Bible DOES in fact say a LOT about homosexuality.

In fact, it's mentioned multiple times in the following:


Leviticus
Deuteronomy
Samuel
Kings
Revelation
etc

Anyone that disputes this either hasn't read The Bible or done their research.

The only thing that has changed in the Christian community (and others I'm sure) is that the Messiah has arrived so the laws of the Old Testament aren't in place anymore. So, what this means to me is that people that believe in this kind of stuff don't think homosexuals should be executed any longer but rather should be prayed for and talked to because they are going to Hell.

But yes, homosexuality is mentioned in The Bible outside of Leviticus at least a dozen times.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Hm, I thought the thread was started to specifically discuss Leviticus and Homosexuality but anyways....

That's what I've been talking about.

The Bible DOES in fact say a LOT about homosexuality.

In fact, it's mentioned multiple times in the following:

Samuel
Kings
Revelation
etc

Where in the world is homosexuality mentioned in those books?!

Anyone that disputes this either hasn't read The Bible or done their research.

Why are you so intent on showing the Bible as homophobic when you're not even a Christian yourself? You're gay-friendly, right? So wouldn't you be happy that research into this this topic is showing that those verses don't necessarily have anything to do with homosexuality and certainly nothing to do with LGBT people as we know them today? It seems that you would praise the gay bashers and you're coming down on LGBT Christians like me who are trying to get the truth out about those passages.

I really don't understand where you're coming from at all on this. It seems that you prefer for us to interpret it in bigoted ways. :confused:

The only thing that has changed in the Christian community (and others I'm sure) is that the Messiah has arrived so the laws of the Old Testament aren't in place anymore. So, what this means to me is that people that believe in this kind of stuff don't think homosexuals should be executed any longer but rather should be prayed for and talked to because they are going to Hell.

Homosexuality doesn't send you to hell.

But yes, homosexuality is mentioned in The Bible outside of Leviticus at least a dozen times.

Where?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
And you somehow think it is rational to argue Baptist beliefs with a Catholic? I for one do not give two ****ing sh-ts as to what the Baptists believe on any issue whether it be gay marriage, dancing or the color of my shoes. Get it?
:facepalm: The issue wasn't one of Baptist v. Catholic, but that saint_frankenstein used the all inclusive "we" in describing Christian theology:
"You obviously don't understand Christian theology. We do not follow the Mosaic Laws because we are under a New Covenant."
and his
"It is simply not a part of Christianity to follow the Mosaic Law"
So, I pointed out, there is no such all-inclusive "we"; Baptist theology being one of the notable exceptions.
Get it?
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Well...most Christians consider homosexuality something natural and absolutely not a sin. So do I.
I think that love has no gender. We are all different, so there are people genetically predisposed to fall in love with people of the same gender. It's DNA, which determines our endocrine system, and so our sexuality.

I think that the Old testament unfortunately contains obsolete and intolerant affirmations, which would be condemned by Jesus, surely.

Christians, I just want to know your opinion: how do you consider the Leviticus verses against homosexuality?
Do you think Pelagius would agree with this?

Tom
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Where in the world is homosexuality mentioned in those books?!

1 Samuel 19:1, And Saul spoke to Jonathan his son and to all his servants, that they should kill David. But Jonathan, Saul’s son, delighted much in David. (RSV)

1 Samuel 20:30, Then Saul’s anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said to him, “You son of a perverse, rebellious woman, do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame, and to the shame of your mother’s nakedness? (RSV)

1 Kings 14:24: There were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to ll the abominations...."

1 Kings 15:12 Asa "did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD" by expelling homosexuals (or "sodomites", as the good book calls them).

1 Kings 22:43, 46 Jehoshaphat "did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord" and "took" the homosexuals (sodomites) "out of the land," or as the RSV says, "he exterminated" them.

Revelation 22:15 Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

1 Timothy 1:10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine​
 

ScuzManiac

Active Member
That's what I've been talking about.



Where in the world is homosexuality mentioned in those books?!



Why are you so intent on showing the Bible as homophobic when you're not even a Christian yourself? You're gay-friendly, right? So wouldn't you be happy that research into this this topic is showing that those verses don't necessarily have anything to do with homosexuality and certainly nothing to do with LGBT people as we know them today? It seems that you would praise the gay bashers and you're coming down on LGBT Christians like me who are trying to get the truth out about those passages.

I really don't understand where you're coming from at all on this. It seems that you prefer for us to interpret it in bigoted ways. :confused:



Homosexuality doesn't send you to hell.



Where?

1. You have the Internet, Google it.

2. The Bible is a fabrication so why would I care whether it approved of it or not? I don't but I'm just stating the facts but you're right. The Bible should have no influence on the issue whatsoever.

3. What's the point of having sins if they don't send you to hell?

4. I just gave you a list of books but since you don't want to take the time to look, I'll give you one example of many. Here ya go:

Corinthians 6:9-10.

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


That's a "easy to understand" translation completed by dozens and dozens of Biblical scholars and is in what we now know as the New International Version.

It is also a VERY widely accepted version of The Bible...

I trust that you can find the rest?

*This is pretty much the most up to date translation of The Bible since so many people want to talk about old translations.....
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Oh, I love it when non-believers want to tell us what our books actually say and want to argue with us when we bring up a more rational interpretation for them based on study of the language and cultures at hand. You people are a trip. :facepalm: If you don't believe and these books don't mean anything to you, then don't try to tell us how we should interpret our sacred scriptures. "But it's not really talking about homosexuality as we understand it today..." "Yes, it is!" *spams with a bunch of verses while providing no context* :facepalm:

I'm sick of repeating myself as this has been gone over and gone over again in multiple threads the past few days.
 
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