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Leviticus 18:22 Mistranslation?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by The Hammer, May 16, 2021.

  1. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member
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    Lost in Translation: Alternative Meaning in Leviticus 18:22 – Queer Bible Hermeneutics

    Sounds like this passage has mistranslations.

    "In sum, traditional English translations of Leviticus 18:22 are known as “clobber passages” that condemn homosexuality. Lings’ philological, literary analysis undermines the inclusion of Lev. 18:22 among those texts. He legitimizes a reading of Lev. 18:22 that condemns incestuous, same-sex rape. Therefore, the use of Leviticus 18:22 as a weapon against all same-sex relationships is not only unjust, but linguistically misguided."
     
    #1 The Hammer, May 16, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2021
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  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    FWIW: Prior to reading the article, my own liberal interpretation of the verse in question essentially prohibits gender-bending. IMO, that's not much different from prohibiting homosexual intimacy. It discriminates against a group based on sexual preference. As a hetrosexual, this discrimination doesn't bother me. It's just one more rule among many. If I were not hetro, perhaps I would be more bothered by it.

    I have not heard the rape/incest verse comparison until now; I'm interested to read the replies from others.
     
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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It's many christians interpretation and bias, not scripture. Scripture pretty clear cut on the topic. Their intentions were rape regardless the sex of the two or three people involved.

    No scripture talks about SSR, SSS in relation to love, and has no reference to sexual orientation. Same sex sex is related to lust, and people's sexual orientation (aka whether they are homosexual or heterosexual) is irrelevant in scripture.
     
    #3 Unveiled Artist, May 16, 2021
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Any thoughts about Leviticus 20:13 _______________
     
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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Hebrew:w’eth-zäkhār lö’ tiškav miškevē ‘iššâ
    Literal Translation:With (a) male you shall not lie (the) lyings of a woman. (An) abomination is that.[2]

    Does the word "lie" not mean speaking untruth in this context?

    Does the word "lying" not mean speaking untruth in this context?
    I know that many people in relationships "lie" a lot against each other (just consider 50 or 60 % divorce rate; must be lots of lying). If that is the case nowadays, I would be surprised if it would have been better 2000 years ago.

    And I know that speaking the Truth is very important, so "lying" indeed is an abomination

    And if you urge people to stop "lying" (speak untruth), there will be much less "sleeping around" too, because it involves a lot of lying
     
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  6. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    No, it means to lie with in the sexual sense. To lay with.
     
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  7. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Wow, Yoda wrote the OT?

    Most surprising is that.
     
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  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    IF one believes that God created everything, even humans THEN it totally makes no sense that God condems homosexuality. Because it would mean that God condemns Himself. And that is weird, because God is defined as being quite perfect, usually not making mistakes or do stupid things. Just imagine if the sun stops shining for 1 day or does not follow its orbit. Everything is too perfect for God to be condemning Himself.
     
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  9. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I don't know what you mean with that

    In the OP was given a link to an article
    The article gave these 2 lines
    And I gave my interpretation of the 2nd line
    As asked in the title about "mistranslation?"
     
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  10. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Joking I was, based on the unusual syntax of Yoda's speech in Star Wars ;)

    "An abomination is that"
     
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  11. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.


    `And with a male thou dost not lie as one lieth with a woman; abomination it [is].

    Leviticus 20:13: `And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood [is] on them.

    ~
    Thank God for the grace He shown to all human kind of earth in which He sent Jesus Christ whom was the Son of God to pay for the sin of which one man did make along time ago named ; Adam whom also Eve came from. Jesus Christ fulfilled the law perfectly which was given to the nation of Israel, and also fulfilled all the prophecies that were foretold in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ came and paid for the sins of the entire earth the entire human population. One time, He paid for the entire human population's sin once on the Cross in which He had died on, in place called The Skull (Calvary). He was buried in a tomb, and 3 days later God had risen Christ Jesus from the dead.

    Anyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, are born again (John 3) by the spirit from above, and they by and through faith have connection to the Creator of the Universe and of Humankind ~ The Christian God, and the Son of God ~ As a new believer ; they have a lot of information they can have access to by looking into the holy bible, and consider the context, and ask questions of who, why, what, when, where, how. ~ If you believe in the Christian God or His Son Jesus Christ - if not that is okay. Maybe it is all wrong and there is nothing of value to it; though would suggest otherwise.

    This is the account of the bible puts forth though it may be wrong and would suggest checking me on it.

    ~

    It seems to say what it says. It is not good for mankind to lie with man, or vice versa.

    It is nothing to get on anyone case about if they are gay, or homosexual, to me personally everyone has something going in their own life.

    Thank God the Lord Jesus Christ paid for the sins of everyone, including me because am not perfect still today and am a sinner saved by grace by faith, living by the Spirit of Christ with-in me has changed me a lot from the old person that once was, am still not as good as Christ, and that is why we need a Saviour in our life, so that we can have a relationship with God and the Lord Jesus Christ by reading and learning about them using the bible at least this is my encouragement.

    You may disagree and that is fine; I have known to have made many mistakes in my life, and have had regrets and grief, but God sent Jesus Christ so that; it is good instead to focus on Jesus Christ and live by the spirit; and understand His teachings about how to forgive, have mercy, to pray, ask God for help overcoming trails and tribulations, and helping by the spirit in a believer to overcome times of greed, hatred, lying, murdering, (Galatians 5:1-24), and become a more loving: caring, merciful, forgiving, forbearing, patient, kind, good, faithful, having joy by the spirit through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ being justified by faith and can grow in knowledge if you desire.

    It is all a choice that is up to you.

    Take care and may God give the increase - if you believe in the Christian God ~ Forgive me and always please go check and reference what is being said here by the bible it self and do not trust me.
     
    #11 MatthewA, May 16, 2021
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
  12. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Aha, thanks for the explanation. I totally don't remember anything from Star Wars, except some vague memory of mr. Spock with strange ears
     
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  13. Rival

    Rival Iiu em hotep.
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    Lol that's Star Trek.
     
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  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It's not about the word lay, but the context in which it's used. It's not talking about homosexuality: thou shall not lie with anyone you are psychologically, emotionally, and physically attracted to.

    It just says two people of the same sex can't be in bed together. I dont know why christians use it to target homosexuals. It has nothing to do with them in particular.
     
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  15. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member
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    So the historicity and accuracy of the linguistics is of no consequence, because the original authors of the Bible meant to mistranslate it to be a Clobber Passage. That's what I'm taking from this.


    We purposely mistranslated the Hebrew to make it say something more than what was implied within the Hebrew version of the chapter.
     
  16. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Does that mean Grogu wrote the NT?
     
  17. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    Hello The hammer,

    I do not know the answer to that question, or understand what a Clobber Passage is. All that is known is what was said before.
     
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  18. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member
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    The article I posted explains the Linguistic shifts I'm discussing, and what exactly a Clobber Passage is, if you are curious. I thought you had read my link, as you responded to the OP.
     
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  19. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    In sum, traditional English translations of Leviticus 18:22 are known as “clobber passages” that condemn homosexuality. Lings’ philological, literary analysis undermines the inclusion of Lev. 18:22 among those texts. He legitimizes a reading of Lev. 18:22 that condemns incestuous, same-sex rape. Therefore, the use of Leviticus 18:22 as a weapon against all same-sex relationships is not only unjust, but linguistically misguided.​

    The Hammer: It seems as though it is very informative link; only felt like reading the end here and these are my thoughts.

    A bit from your link. I see. All I know is that everyone in life makes mistakes, and some people love men and wanna be married to them, or a woman to be married to a woman, you have people who desire to be married to kids who are around 14, and you also have people who kill their own family, and steal from others, and abuse, along with manipulation.

    From my perception ; A persons choice in life almost every choice has a consequence be it a good choice or a bad choice;

    So people will make their own decisions: Some use excuses they were born that way, raised that way, or whatever it may be which may be a part in life that plays in a the factor of why the individual human makes the choice to go along with whatever they decide by their own choice to go along with.

    And also from my perception is that every person is responsible for their own actions. This means a every individual who are mentally well, and capable; who can think, and do for themselves, are all responsible for their own choices in life.

    ~ For the most part if a person is gay, transgender, or any of those things; they do not bother me because the person is not a title ; such as gay, transgender, or whatever murder; rapist, stealing children, whatever that person is to another ; is still a human being.

    (And each choice has a consequence good or bad) People will look over others because they are not like the other people seeing as though they are better than another person because they make good, or better choice, the reality is all human beings are the same; and no one is better than the other but each person is responsible for his or her own actions in their life and every choice has a consequence to it that might end up leading to death, prison, troubles, or better health, education, or whatever you might be interested in.)

    ~ And my thoughts are every needs the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12; John 3:10-20)~ but not everyone desires, to know or have anything to do with him until maybe they are ready one day. :) If they so desire. Good news is Jesus Christ came, lived, died, was raised again by God; and paid for all of the world's sin. Sin was defeated though sin (the flesh) still resides with us, even after we are saved into the kingdom (Colossians 1:10-15) through belief. (As you go along and learn about Christ you will learn the difference between the Flesh and the Spirit especially in Romans 6; and Galatians 5). Satan has also been defeated along with his demons, and angels, though Darkness still exist, and people because of what Adam did in the Garden, caused everyone to become spiritually dead, and Jesus Christ came paid for the sins that those who believe; can become spiritually alive and spiritually reborn and have a new life with and by faith in Christ Jesus. ~

    Dont believe me though! Go check the bible out for yourself anyone that is curious.

    Thank you for reading, and the question The Hammer.
     
    #19 MatthewA, May 16, 2021
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
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  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with that. But, if we would assume it is true, is the same also with:

    'You shall not lie carnally with your neighbor's wife, and defile yourself with her.
    Lev. 18:20

    It is then ok to lie with neighbors wife, if she is not your close relative?
     
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