Let's talk POWER

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In another thread, the (everlasting) question of God's presumed omnipotence is once more in contention. Apparently, there are those that suppose that God is able to do anything, but for "reasons of His own," denies Himself. Humans who prefer not to play are completely able to thwart this God's desires, apparently by His own choice.

But, it gets worse, because the assumption is also made, so often, by these same believers, that this very God grants the same privilege to Satan...to do what Satan wants even in despite of God's supposed will!

Isn't there some sort of bizarre illogicality here...of an omnipotent deity that wills itself into impotence?

I have trouble believing in any god at all, but that one seems to me to be completely ludicrous.

 

[YmirGF]

I've always felt that it was a cop-out to use this line of "reasoning". People have this thing for telling us, at length, what their primitive god concepts can and cannot do. (It's almost as if their God has no say.)

Heck, most of the various god concepts centre around a personality, that nobody in their right mind, would want to ever meet. (Aside from the fact that we are too tainted to even think of presenting ourselves to his unimaginably magnificent persona.)

 

[Jollybear]

"If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful, If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good."

This old idea assumes God has not given freedom.

Secondly, it is utterly rediculious given the fact that if he did away with all evil, or what we percieved as evil, then he would be doing everything for us. We would have no responsibility. This means wed not value work, intellectual thought, nothing, because hed do it all for us. Practically crippling the human race.

 

[Kenny]

In another thread, the (everlasting) question of God's presumed omnipotence is once more in contention. Apparently, there are those that suppose that God is able to do anything, but for "reasons of His own," denies Himself. Humans who prefer not to play are completely able to thwart this God's desires, apparently by His own choice.

Ae we suppose to just believe that this narrative is stated correctly? Or was that just the opinion on one poster or two?

As you state it, it sounds ludicrous to me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Although not every Jewish scholar has embraced the notion of free will, generally speaking Judaism assumes free will. This is because in Judaism, our actions are significant. Good actions are rewarded and bad actions are punished. This can only make sense if there is free will.

Consider if someone steals, but only because they were compelled to do so, say, because they had a bomb strapped around them with the threat that it would go off if they didn't rob the bank. Are they not just as much the victim as the bank? Should they be punished for stealing? Of course not! Or consider the man who gives very generously to a charity, but only because the crimelords that run the charity threaten his life if he doesn't. Shall he be rewarded for his generosity? Of course not! Although we can sympathize with the fact that he was abused, we certainly can't credit him with giving to charity. In both cases, the actions are made insignificant by the fact that they were compelled.

In the same way, if God completely controlled us, so that we had no free will, our actions would have no significance, and it would make no sense for God to reward and punish us.

Well, you say, what of the verses about God interfering in human affairs or having foreknowledge of events. Doesn't that show his omnipotence, and our lack of free will?

Jewish thinkers have not resolved the problem the conflict between the omnipotence of God and the existence of free will. Different ideas have been proposed.

In my own personal opinion, I think the best and most obvious solution is simply that God has decided that he wants us to have free will. Thus any "setting aside" by himself of his sovereignty in order to achieve this is not counter to his omnipotence but the other way around -- DUE to his omnipotence.

 

[ChristineM]

In another thread, the (everlasting) question of God's presumed omnipotence is once more in contention. Apparently, there are those that suppose that God is able to do anything, but for "reasons of His own," denies Himself. Humans who prefer not to play are completely able to thwart this God's desires, apparently by His own choice.

But, it gets worse, because the assumption is also made, so often, by these same believers, that this very God grants the same privilege to Satan...to do what Satan wants even in despite of God's supposed will!

Isn't there some sort of bizarre illogicality here...of an omnipotent deity that wills itself into impotence?

I have trouble believing in any god at all, but that one seems to me to be completely ludicrous.

Try this argument. I have used it often on another forum and to date received no acceptable denial or have been met with outright incredulity.

Power is energy expended / time.

The definition of omnipotent : (of a deity) having unlimited power.
For a god to be omnipotent he must have unlimited (infinite) energy, i.e. all available energy.

The first law of thermodynamics states energy can neither be created or destroyed but can only be changed (into matter (mass))

That means there is no energy left to change into mass... Ergo stars, planets and humans which have of mass cannot exist if, as Revelation 19:6 (KJV) states, god is omnipotent.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't find it bizarre at all. Are you telling me that you have never decided withhold demonstration of your own power in various situations? I mean, I know I'm capable of doing a heck of a lot of things above and beyond what I do on a daily basis, but don't do all of those things for reasons that are my own. How is this bizarre?

 

[tayla]

Apparently, there are those that suppose that God is able to do anything, but for "reasons of His own," denies Himself. Humans who prefer not to play are completely able to thwart this God's desires, apparently by His own choice.

But, it gets worse, because the assumption is also made, so often, by these same believers, that this very God grants the same privilege to Satan...to do what Satan wants even in despite of God's supposed will!

Isn't there some sort of bizarre illogicality here...of an omnipotent deity that wills itself into impotence?

I have trouble believing in any god at all, but that one seems to me to be completely ludicrous.

Yes, I personally find this concept of God and the origin of evil to be..., dare I say the word?... silly. It makes no sense and it is utterly contradictory in many ways.