• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
You are missing a JW point. According to them, Adam was perfect in God's image so when HE sinned he did it with knowledge. That knowledge Adam had didn't come again until the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses got it back (according to them) so now when at the end anyone is found sinning the sin of Adam he or she also dies the death of Adam which is a death without a resurrection. I am not making this up.

I understand that they "think" Adam was perfect, what they don't understand is, if Adam was "perfect", without flaw or defect, he would not have disobeyed God. Just the fact that Adam had "free will" made him less than perfect.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Adam had no excuse for his sin because he was made perfect and Jehovah was with him.

We have no excuse for our sin either, lest we be found saying,

Genesis 3:12 (ESV Strong's) 12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.”

Genesis 3:13 (ESV Strong's) 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
What will happen to you if you die before Jesus returns?

The same thing that happened to Lazarus. I will "sleep" awaiting Jesus' call to return to life here on earth....its called the resurrection. (John 11:11-14; John 5:28-29)....but not the "first" one. (Revelation 20:6)

Is this the more accurate answer?

Genesis 3:19 (ESV Strong's) 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
This is not the slave's teaching...it is what the Bible teaches. I suggest you do some study.

*** bh p. 214 par. 3 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***
No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7)

I should do some studying? Please read Romans 6, starting at verse 1, and explain to us how the 'slave' got "physical" death out of what Paul was saying. If you dare, you might just find out, "What the Bible Really Teaches".
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We have no excuse for our sin either, lest we be found saying,

Genesis 3:12 (ESV Strong's) 12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.”

Genesis 3:13 (ESV Strong's) 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
People have excuse for sinning. Not all the time, but sometimes. For instance, I might help my hungry neighbor, But I do not know he is hungry and I do not know what he needs and when. Matthew 25:42

Do you have no excuse for not making a disciple of the real Jesus out of @Deeje? You are sinning if you have not made a disciple of the people you meet. Isn't Jesus' command to be making disciples? Isn't it a sin not to obey it?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Jesus believers are supposed to make the nations disciples of his. We are not doing it. I have an excuse. You don't @djhwoodwerks ?

I don't believe that is true. That is why there are so many different "religions", because different people believe different things and they are all trying to "make disciples" of the nations.

Jesus said,

Matthew 5:14-16 (ESV Strong's) 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

And,

Matthew 28:19-20 (ESV Strong's) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Some people read this and think they have to teach with words, which I don't believe is what is meant. Do you teach someone to be a doctor by just telling them what the books say? How do we teach someone to "observe" something?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't believe that is true. That is why there are so many different "religions", because different people believe different things and they are all trying to "make disciples" of the nations.

Jesus said,

Matthew 5:14-16 (ESV Strong's) 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

And,

Matthew 28:19-20 (ESV Strong's) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Some people read this and think they have to teach with words, which I don't believe is what is meant. Do you teach someone to be a doctor by just telling them what the books say? How do we teach someone to "observe" something?
Do you mean that you do not believe that Jesus commanded anyone to be making disciples?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, I don't believe He meant to make disciples by preaching and teaching. Aren't all followers of Jesus disciples/students?
They should be. I think you might agree with me that nobody should be "made" to follow. It is a person's own choice to follow Jesus and nobody can make him do it imho.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
They should be. I think you might agree with me that nobody should be "made" to follow. It is a person's own choice to follow Jesus and nobody can make him do it imho.

I agree, no one can "make" a disciple. No one can "make" another follow Jesus like one makes a cake, especially by preaching!


I believe we are to make disciples by letting our light shine among other. Paul said,

1 Peter 3:15 (ASV) 15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

That's how I became a disciple. I knew a person years ago that was always full of joy and peace, no matter what was going on in his life. I remember asking him, "why are you so happy all the time?", "why do you never get angry or upset?" And he said, "I have the peace Jesus promised He would give us!" The conversation went on and I started reading the Bible, then started studying it. I wanted to know what he was talking about, he made me a disciple.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I agree, no one can "make" a disciple. No one can "make" another follow Jesus like one makes a cake, especially by preaching!


I believe we are to make disciples by letting our light shine among other. Paul said,

1 Peter 3:15 (ASV) 15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

That's how I became a disciple. I knew a person years ago that was always full of joy and peace, no matter what was going on in his life. I remember asking him, "why are you so happy all the time?", "why do you never get angry or upset?" And he said, "I have the peace Jesus promised He would give us!" The conversation went on and I started reading the Bible, then started studying it. I wanted to know what he was talking about, he made me a disciple.
We disagree that HE made you one. GOD brought him to you, and GOD showed you the happiness that comes with Jesus. Jesus made you a disciple. Isn't it Jesus who makes you endure following him? Did the man you met make you endure or does God?
@Does the man's happiness or your own happiness make you endure for Christ?
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I see, then when "you", and 7,700,000 witnesses read Ephesians 1:3-5, it is read this way,

Ephesians 1:3-5 (ESV Strong's) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed [them] in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose [them] in him before the foundation of the world, that [they] should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined [them] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Can only the anointed read it this way?

Ephesians 1:3-5 (ESV Strong's) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

You have such a stilted view of the scriptures...so who is your teacher? There is so little understanding of the deeper things in your posts. The Christian scriptures were written to, for and by, those who have the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1). They apply directly to them and in principle to those who will be their subjects. All Christians must live by the same code of conduct and set of beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Where does that leave the 'loners' who think that they are somehow "special" and have a 'personal trainer' in their understanding of scripture? If that personal trainer was Jesus, then he would be conducting a class with others, not giving them personal instruction alone. There is a reason why Christ's disciples gathered in "congregations".

All of Christ's disciples, whether they are those with the "heavenly calling" or whether they have an earthly hope, apply scripture to themselves in the correct sense. All are "saved" but not all are "chosen". (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14) What is the point of all Chiefs and no Indians? All governments need rulers and all rulers need subjects. Is that a difficult concept? The kingdom is a theocracy. It is a heavenly government with earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:1-5)
These rulers, like their King and Leader, are also priests, (Revelation 20:6) so they need sinners for whom to perform their duties as such. How does your view fit their roles?

How many different "senses" are there? He is Jesus' "Father" He is the 'adoptive' Father of the anointed, what kind of Father is He to you?

When you understand what the kingdom is and why it is necessary, it is obvious that there are two very different "flocks" under this "one shepherd". Jehovah is our Father in the sense that he is our life-giver. Jesus is also called a "father" in that sense, because his sacrifice is life-giving to all of us. I am not an adopted "son of God" because I will never be in the presence of my Father in the same way as those who will dwell in heaven. I am not anointed for heavenly life because I am not one of the "elect". My hope is to inherit the earthly paradise that my forefather Adam took away from us....the one Jesus came to get back for us. The kingdom will restore all that was lost and reconcile us back into an acceptable sinless relationship with our Father.

You should really do some "independent" research before you make such comments, because I do "test all things".

By your responses, you test nothing except your contempt for JW's. It seems to be your mission to shoot down everything we believe....but you are fighting a losing battle. Where are your spiritual brothers and sisters djh? You never answer....who are your brethren with whom you are to meet regularly? (Hebrews 10:24-25) Who are your "leaders" "keeping watch over your soul"? (Hebrews 13:17) Please answer...if you have the truth...to whom do you direct people so that they can worship correctly?

Isaiah 63:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Isaiah 64:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter;we are all the work of your hand.

Again we are talking about 'senses' of the word. God was Father to Israel, but not in the sense that he was a Father to Jesus and his anointed followers.

"The Hebrew word ʼav, translated “father,” is a mimetic (imitative) word taken from the first and simplest sounds of infant lips. The Hebrew ʼav and the Greek pa·terʹ are both used in various senses: as begetter, or progenitor, of an individual (Pr 23:22; Zec 13:3; Lu 1:67), the head of a household or ancestral family (Ge 24:40; Ex 6:14), an ancestor (Ge 28:13; Joh 8:53), a founder of a nation (Mt 3:9), a founder of a class or profession (Ge 4:20, 21), a protector (Job 29:16; Ps 68:5), the source of something (Job 38:28), and a term of respect (2Ki 5:13; Ac 7:2).
Jehovah God as Creator is called Father. (Isa 64:8; compare Ac 17:28, 29.) He is also the Father of spirit-begotten Christians, the Aramaic term ʼAb·baʼʹ being used as an expression of respect and of close filial relationship. (Ro 8:15; see ABBA.) All who express faith with a hope of everlasting life can address God as Father. (Mt 6:9) Jesus Christ, the Messiah, because of being God’s Chief Agent of life, was prophetically called Eternal Father. (Isa 9:6) Also, anyone who has imitators and followers, or those who exhibit his qualities, is regarded as a father to them. (Mt 5:44, 45; Ro 4:11, 12) In this sense the Devil is spoken of as a father.—Joh 8:44; compare Ge 3:15.
Applying “father” to men as a formalistic or religious title was forbidden by Jesus. (Mt 23:9) Because of Paul’s bringing the good news to certain Christians and nourishing them spiritually he was like a father to them, but in no scripture is “father” applied to him as a religious title. (1Co 4:14, 15) Paul likened himself to both a father and a mother in his relation to the Thessalonian Christians. (1Th 2:7, 11) Whereas reference is made at Luke 16:24, 30 to “father Abraham,” this is basically in the sense of fleshly ancestry."
(Insight Volume 1 "Father")

Israel Is My Son.” To Pharaoh, who considered himself a god and a son of the Egyptian god Ra, Jehovah spoke of Israel as “my son, my firstborn,” and called on the Egyptian ruler to “send my son away that he may serve me.” (Ex 4:22, 23) Thus the entire nation of Israel was viewed by God as his “son” because of being his chosen people, a “special property, out of all the peoples.” (De 14:1, 2) Not only because Jehovah is the Source of all life but more specifically because God had, in harmony with the Abrahamic covenant, produced this people, he is called their “Creator,” their “Former,” and their “Father,” the one by whose name they were called. (Compare Ps 95:6, 7; 100:3; Isa 43:1-7, 15; 45:11, 12, 18, 19; 63:16.) He had ‘helped them even from the belly,’ evidently referring to the very beginning of their development as a people, and he ‘formed’ them by his dealings with them and by the Law covenant, giving shape to the national characteristics and structure. (Isa 44:1, 2, 21; compare God’s expressions to Jerusalem at Eze 16:1-14; also Paul’s expressions at Ga 4:19 and 1Th 2:11, 12.) Jehovah protected, carried, corrected, and provided for them as a father would for his son. (De 1:30, 31; 8:5-9; compare Isa 49:14, 15.) As “a son,” the nation should have served to the praise of its Father. (Isa 43:21; Mal 1:6) Otherwise Israel would belie its sonship (De 32:4-6, 18-20; Isa 1:2, 3; 30:1, 2, 9), even as some of the Israelites acted in disreputable ways and were called “sons of belial” (literal Hebrew expression rendered “good-for-nothing men” at De 13:13 and other texts; compare 2Co 6:15). They became “renegade sons.”—Jer 3:14, 22; compare 4:22.
It was in this national sense, and due to their covenant relationship, that God dealt with the Israelites as sons. This is seen by the fact that God simultaneously refers to himself not only as their “Maker” but also as their “Repurchaser” and even as their “husbandly owner,” this latter expression placing Israel in the relationship of a wife to him. (Isa 54:5, 6; compare Isa 63:8; Jer 3:14.) It was evidently with their covenant relationship in mind, and recognizing God as responsible for the formation of the nation, that the Israelites addressed themselves to Jehovah as “our Father.”—Isa 63:16-19; compare Jer 3:18-20; Ho 1:10, 11."
(Insight Volume 2 "Son(s) of God")
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
According to your reply, "our way of thinking" is a lot alike!

Please point out the differences between what I said and what you said. You said the exact same thing I did, except you added many more words!

I am sorry but you lost me with the "SOL"
shy2.gif
...that actually means something else in Australia....and its not repeatable by a Christian.
Perhaps specifying a phrase is better in international communication than an acronym.
be2.gif
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
The Christian scriptures were written to, for and by, those who have the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1). They apply directly to them and in principle to those who will be their subjects.

While you continue to play the word game when you respond to my posts, you actually confirm what I say, while trying to be wordy so no one will notice!

I said,

I see, then when "you", and 7,700,000 witnesses read Ephesians 1:3-5, it is read this way,

Ephesians 1:3-5 (ESV Strong's) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed [them] in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose [them] in him before the foundation of the world, that [they] should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined [them] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Can only the anointed read it this way?

Ephesians 1:3-5 (ESV Strong's) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Then you said,

The Christian scriptures were written to, for and by, those who have the "heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1). They apply directly to them and in principle to those who will be their subjects.

I guess I should have used different words, I should have said,

I see, when "you", or any other "subject of the kingdom" read Ephesians 1:3-5, it is read this way,

Ephesians 1:3-5 (ESV Strong's) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed [them] in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose [them] in him before the foundation of the world, that [they] should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined [them] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Because "you", being just a subject of the kingdom, 'cannot' add the word "us" into those verses because it wasn't written to you.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
When you understand what the kingdom is and why it is necessary, it is obvious that there are two very different "flocks" under this "one shepherd".

"Two" flocks and one Shepherd?

John 10:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I am sorry but you lost me with the "SOL"
shy2.gif
...that actually means something else in Australia....and its not repeatable by a Christian.
Perhaps specifying a phrase is better in international communication than an acronym.
be2.gif

SOL - so out of luck!
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
God was not mentioned as a "Father" until Jesus spoke of him that way. He was God to Israel, but the Father of Jesus and those adopted as sons to rule in the kingdom.

You should really do some "independent" research before you make such comments, because I do "test all things".

Isaiah 63:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Isaiah 64:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter;we are all the work of your hand.

By your responses, you test nothing except your contempt for JW's. It seems to be your mission to shoot down everything we believe....but you are fighting a losing battle. Where are your spiritual brothers and sisters djh? You never answer....who are your brethren with whom you are to meet regularly? (Hebrews 10:24-25) Who are your "leaders" "keeping watch over your soul"? (Hebrews 13:17) Please answer...if you have the truth...to whom do you direct people so that they can worship correctly?

Typical tactics of the witnesses, I show what you say is not true, so instead of admitting you were wrong, you attack me personally.
 
Last edited:

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do "YOU" make your husband happy?
I don't understand the question. My husband says he is happier with me than without me. You are not married to the guy that convinced you to seek Jesus. Are you?

You are using a modern usage to explain the meaning of an ancient phrase.
And no, my husband and I do not make each other happy. Happiness comes from within, not without.

God is creator and maker. I think you should know that.
 
Last edited:
Top