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Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Again, how could Adam pay for his sin with his own life, but we can't? After he rebelled, he was no better off than we are, it takes a perfect sacrifice, and Adam wasn't perfect!

Adam knew the penalty for his disobedience was death. God had already told him what would happen if he disobeyed that one command. He suffered the stated penalty...he died and returned to the dust, just as God had said. But his children had lost their perfection due to a genetic inheritance that they could not fix on their own.
Adam lost perfect life for them, and Jesus came to redeem them by paying the debt. Surely that is not a difficult concept. Look up the role of a redeemer in Israel.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Jesus was a son addressing his Father....do you call your father by his given name?

Are you saying God is not your Father? Are you not a child of God?

When reading or quoting the OT, Jesus would have used the name he said he had come to "make known".

I think it strange that, Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, came to make His Father's name known and only used it when quoting OT scripture, but witnesses think it a dishonor if we don't use God's name. Which of the Apostles, Jesus' "spiritual brothers" ever used God's name, except for "quoting" OT scripture?

His name had ceased to be uttered in Israel because men had taken it upon themselves to stop saying it and to eventually stop writing it

Even by Jesus, except when "quoting" OT scripture!

When Jesus read or quoted scripture, he would have pronounced his Father's name because it was there in the text.

And that is the "only time" He ever said the name, when "quoting" OT scripture.

John 17:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world.

And He did that by "quoting" a few OT scripture?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Adam knew the penalty for his disobedience was death.

What is the penalty for your disobedience?

God had already told him what would happen if he disobeyed that one command.

What did God, or Jesus, or your 'slave' tell you would happen if you disobey 'any' command of God?

He suffered the stated penalty...he died and returned to the dust, just as God had said.

What will happen to you if you die before Jesus returns?

But his children had lost their perfection due to a genetic inheritance that they could not fix on their own.

Adam didn't lose his perfection that he could not fix on his own?

Adam lost perfect life for them, and Jesus came to redeem them by paying the debt.

So what you are trying 'not' to say is, Adam was the creator of sin by being the first one to sin, and thereby he is SOL, he has no hope of ever living again?

Even tho the 'slave' teaches that,

*** bh p. 214 par. 3 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***
According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Again, how could Adam pay for his sin with his own life, but we can't? After he rebelled, he was no better off than we are, it takes a perfect sacrifice, and Adam wasn't perfect!

Can dead Adam resurrect himself ? ____
Don't we pay for our sins with our own life ? What does Romans 6:7; 6:23 mean for us ?
So, except for those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6, to me, the rest will have a happy-and-healthy resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Since Jesus died a sinless death, then Jesus could ' balance the scales of justice ' for us and we can have a resurrection - Revelation 1:18
In other words, we can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Can dead Adam resurrect himself ? ____

No one can resurrect themselves.

Don't we pay for our sins with our own life ? What does Romans 6:7; 6:23 mean for us ?

No we don't!

You misinterpret Romans 6:7 horribly! Why do witnesses take verse 7 out of context? It's not speaking of physical death.

Romans 6:1-8 (ESV Strong's) 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Verse 7 doesn't mean you are sinless and have atoned for your sin when you physically die, it means that you have been "set free" from the power/control of sin.

6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:10-11 (ESV Strong's) For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So "you also must consider yourselves dead to sin" and alive to God in Christ Jesus.



So, except for those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6, to me, the rest will have a happy-and-healthy resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Since Jesus died a sinless death, then Jesus could ' balance the scales of justice ' for us and we can have a resurrection - Revelation 1:18
In other words, we can Not resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will.

What does any of that have to do with Adam paying for his sin with his life?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Are you saying God is not your Father?

He is not my Father in the same sense that he is the Father of Jesus and his anointed ones. They are adopted as spiritual sons who will dwell in his presence as immortal spirit beings in heaven....I have no such hope.

Ephesians 1:3-5:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" (NASB)

My hope is to be among those who be ruled by them on earth. (Revelation 21:1-5)

God was not mentioned as a "Father" until Jesus spoke of him that way. He was God to Israel, but the Father of Jesus and those adopted as sons to rule in the kingdom.

Are you not a child of God?

Was Moses, Ezekiel, David or Jeremiah or Isaiah....all used God's name freely and with reverence.

I think it strange that, Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, came to make His Father's name known and only used it when quoting OT scripture, but witnesses think it a dishonor if we don't use God's name. Which of the Apostles, Jesus' "spiritual brothers" ever used God's name, except for "quoting" OT scripture?

I love the way you create strawmen and then demolish them.
306.gif
I never said he only used God's name when quoting OT scripture....who knows how he spoke to his apostles and disciples? All we have are the scriptures and Jesus' own words. If he said he had come to make his Father's name known to those who accepted him, then you figure it out. He only preached to Jews, who had lost the divine name due to the superstitions of men. Why else would he have to make God's name known to a people who already had it?

And that is the "only time" He ever said the name, when "quoting" OT scripture.

This is your version of events, not mine. Quoting OT scripture is what Jesus did quite a bit. (Luke 4:1-13) If the divine name was in the text, he would not have followed the traditions of the men whose conduct he condemned.

John 17:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world.

And He did that by "quoting" a few OT scripture?

Are you on a loop? I think there is a name for that....
14k8gag.gif
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What is the penalty for your disobedience?

"The wages sin pays is death" for everyone. But as a descendant of Adam, the penalty I pay is not the same as his.
Jesus has paid for my sin, he did not pay for Adam's.

What did God, or Jesus, or your 'slave' tell you would happen if you disobey 'any' command of God?

What does the Bible tell me will happen if I disobey God? Do you think any of them will tell me something different?

What will happen to you if you die before Jesus returns?

The same thing that happened to Lazarus. I will "sleep" awaiting Jesus' call to return to life here on earth....its called the resurrection. (John 11:11-14; John 5:28-29)....but not the "first" one. (Revelation 20:6)

Adam didn't lose his perfection that he could not fix on his own?

The genetic inheritance Adam passed onto his children is called sin, (Romans 5:12) which is an archery term for "missing the mark".
When sin entered into his life, he lost the perfection of mind and body that would have led to him living forever without growing old, getting sick or dying. His children never had a chance to experience life without sin, like their forefather once did.

So what you are trying 'not' to say is, Adam was the creator of sin by being the first one to sin, and thereby he is SOL, he has no hope of ever living again?

Please don't put words in my mouth...they are never correct because your thinking is completely opposite to mine.

Adam's sin was not forgiven because there was no basis for God to forgive him. He made a deliberate choice to disobey a direct command of his God that carried the death penalty. He had no inherited sin to blame so there was no excuse.....all Adam could expect was what God stated...."In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."

God sent Adam back to where he came from...never to be seen again.


Even tho the 'slave' teaches that,

*** bh p. 214 par. 3 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***
According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.

This is not the slave's teaching...it is what the Bible teaches. I suggest you do some study.
Do you have a more correct understanding of judgment day? Let's hear it...."the word according to djh"......
301.gif
who knows scripture better than anyone, but can't find a church to share his beliefs. How can you be a church of one djh? How do you meet with fellow believers to fulfill Hebrews 10:24-25? Who are your leaders whom Paul says we are to "obey" because they are "keeping watch over our souls"? (Hebrews 13:17) Are you really in a position to tell us we are wrong and your are right? All the best with that.
SEVeyesC08_th.gif
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If he said he had come to make his Father's name known to those who accepted him, then you figure it out. He only preached to Jews, who had lost the divine name due to the superstitions of men. Why else would he have to make God's make known to a people who already had it?
As far as I know, no Jehovah's Witness has disputed the opinion that Jesus made known the name of God respecting God's character, not the name of God's character. The Name of God may mean what a person can rightly expect of God. Do not take the name of God in vain means never to call on God's Name for one's own personal pursuits. Only call on God's Name to work the works of Jehovah*.

*so that someone (not you @djhwoodwerks ) might understand what I am trying to say.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Saying God's Name and praying in God's Name are not the same. To ask something in God's Name without knowing it is not God's will is not a sin according to Commandment Number Three (or something). To be living for something that is personal and asking it in God's Name over and over again is taking God's Name in vain which is a sin according to Moses. It is not a sin because God is easily offended (just as everyone teaches it*). It is a sin because it is not going to happen by the will of God in God's Name. I suppose it is a fine and good thing that the Jews here have me ignored.

To pray for anything inimical to God's will in God's Name is called "grieving The Holy Spirit". Ephesians 4:30

* Ecclesiastes 7:9 9 Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended,+ for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones.+
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is my opinion that it is extremely unfortunate that people have taken away meaning from The Holy Spirit and given it to the World.
Colossians 3:5 Ephesians 5:5 Hebrews 13:5 1 Timothy 6:9-10 Matthew 6:20

They have made God's warning about money and material possessions, but isn't it true that to work against the will of Jehovah* means personal covetousness?
It means, "it will be my way". THINK. If it is your way, how can it also be God's way, unless of course, you are god? You are not God. History shows what we get when someone lifts himself up to be like God. Imagine what is coming when a whole lot of people lift themselves up to be God. It is not going to be good. I might be wrong, but as our friendly friend keeps on saying, "we'll see". I might not see it, as I am confident that The Lord Jesus will excuse me.

*I do not care that they call anyone Jehovah. It is not my name for God. Please be chilling @djhwoodwerks

Mammon (which they say means money) is not something used for trade. It is something which is kept for a feeling of security.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To be praying in God's Name that everyone become a Jehovah's Witness is a sin if it is not God's will and if order can be taken into consideration, then it is a worse sin than murder and adultery because not taking God's Name in vain is Commandment Number Two, Three, or Four.

Then, if I am right, [and it is not possible because I am alone (haha)] some Jehovah's Witnesses who think that to kill in war makes a person an enemy of Jehovah, are being silly.

Isn't he?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why not ask someone who knows ancient Greek if "Mammon" might mean, "anything a person puts their trust in for their own feeling of security"?

Don't ask the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. They believe Jesus can be a lamb in Heaven and a warrior king on Earth at the same time and that he received his authority twice.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
He is not my Father in the same sense that he is the Father of Jesus and his anointed ones. They are adopted as spiritual sons who will dwell in his presence as immortal spirit beings in heaven....I have no such hope.

Ephesians 1:3-5:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" (NASB)

My hope is to be among those who be ruled by them on earth. (Revelation 21:1-5)

I see, then when "you", and 7,700,000 witnesses read Ephesians 1:3-5, it is read this way,

Ephesians 1:3-5 (ESV Strong's) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed [them] in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose [them] in him before the foundation of the world, that [they] should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined [them] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Can only the anointed read it this way?

Ephesians 1:3-5 (ESV Strong's) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,


He is not my Father in the same sense that he is the Father of Jesus and his anointed ones.

How many different "senses" are there? He is Jesus' "Father" He is the 'adoptive' Father of the anointed, what kind of Father is He to you?


God was not mentioned as a "Father" until Jesus spoke of him that way. He was God to Israel, but the Father of Jesus and those adopted as sons to rule in the kingdom.

You should really do some "independent" research before you make such comments, because I do "test all things".

Isaiah 63:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Isaiah 64:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter;we are all the work of your hand.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is my opinion that it is extremely unfortunate that people have taken away meaning from The Holy Spirit and given it to the World.
Colossians 3:5 Ephesians 5:5 Hebrews 13:5 1 Timothy 6:9-10 Matthew 6:20

They have made God's warning about money and material possessions, but isn't it true that to work against the will of Jehovah* means personal covetousness?
It means, "it will be my way". THINK. If it is your way, how can it also be God's way, unless of course, you are god? You are not God. History shows what we get when someone lifts himself up to be like God. Imagine what is coming when a whole lot of people lift themselves up to be God. It is not going to be good. I might be wrong, but as our friendly friend keeps on saying, "we'll see". I might not see it, as I am confident that The Lord Jesus will excuse me.

*I do not care that they call anyone Jehovah. It is not my name for God. Please be chilling @djhwoodwerks

Mammon (which they say means money) is not something used for trade. It is something which is kept for a feeling of security.
And the thing you keep for a feeling of security can indeed be your OPINION. Can your opinion be changed? Are you leaning on it for your hope? It is your MAMMON.

Are you hoping in your relationship with Jesus to save you? Then it becomes mammon to you. See? Instead of trusting in Jesus to save you, you trust in your opinion of Jesus to save you.

Jesus saves versus your opinion saves.

Jehovah's Witness teach that knowledge saves. Knowledge is the JW's mammon. No one can actually deny that they are serving knowledge.
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
So what you are trying 'not' to say is, Adam was the creator of sin by being the first one to sin, and thereby he is SOL, he has no hope of ever living again?

Please don't put words in my mouth...they are never correct because your thinking is completely opposite to mine.

Adam's sin was not forgiven because there was no basis for God to forgive him. He made a deliberate choice to disobey a direct command of his God that carried the death penalty. He had no inherited sin to blame so there was no excuse.....all Adam could expect was what God stated...."In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."

God sent Adam back to where he came from...never to be seen again.

According to your reply, "our way of thinking" is a lot alike!

Please point out the differences between what I said and what you said. You said the exact same thing I did, except you added many more words!
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I never said he only used God's name when quoting OT scripture

No, you didn't, I did. That is the only "recorded" time Jesus ever used God's name, "quoting" OT scripture. If Jesus was so adamant about "everyone" using God's name, it would have been recorded of Jesus using it, don't you think?

Jesus was a son addressing his Father....do you call your father by his given name?

He is not my Father in the same sense that he is the Father of Jesus and his anointed ones.

Why do the "anointed ones" call Him by His name? The 'slave' uses His name all the time. If He is their Father, why do they disrespect Him and use His name?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
"The wages sin pays is death" for everyone. But as a descendant of Adam, the penalty I pay is not the same as his.
Jesus has paid for my sin, he did not pay for Adam's.

So Jesus' sacrifice only went forward, not backward? It was just for everyone alive on earth at the time until present? Or, did it go backward, but stopped at Abel?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So Jesus' sacrifice only went forward, not backward? It was just for everyone alive on earth at the time until present? Or, did it go backward, but stopped at Abel?
You are missing a JW point. According to them, Adam was perfect in God's image so when HE sinned he did it with knowledge. That knowledge Adam had didn't come again until the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses got it back (according to them) so now when at the end anyone is found sinning the sin of Adam he or she also dies the death of Adam which is a death without a resurrection. I am not making this up.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Adam had no excuse for his sin because he was made perfect and Jehovah was with him. So when he sinned, after Jehovah had warned him that he would die, he died and because he was perfect and was warned, he will not be resurrected. He is gone forever.

NOW, because Jesus died and cleansed every believer in Jesus of sin and because Jehovah has given us the faithful and discreet slave to be like God is with us, everyone now who sins against the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses dies and will not be resurrected.

Maybe you think I am making this up? I am not. It doesn't sound so good in a few words, but that is what they teach in many, many, many, many, many words.

I bet if I go to one more convention, there I will finds the words to prove my point. I might rather die though.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
So what you are trying 'not' to say is, Adam was the creator of sin by being the first one to sin, and thereby he is SOL, he has no hope of ever living again?

Even tho the 'slave' teaches that,

*** bh p. 214 par. 3 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***
According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.

This is not the slave's teaching...it is what the Bible teaches. I suggest you do some study.
Do you have a more correct understanding of judgment day? Let's hear it...."the word according to djh"......
301.gif
who knows scripture better than anyone, but can't find a church to share his beliefs. How can you be a church of one djh? How do you meet with fellow believers to fulfill Hebrews 10:24-25? Who are your leaders whom Paul says we are to "obey" because they are "keeping watch over our souls"?

(Hebrews 13:17) Are you really in a position to tell us we are wrong and your are right? All the best with that.

Let's take a look at what's "not" being taught,

*** bh p. 214 par. 3 Judgment Day—What Is It? ***
According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.


"According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds."

"Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day."

According to the apostle John's vision, the "DEAD" were judged for what they "had done". And according to the 'slave' the "LIVING" will be judged for what they do "during" judgment. John said the dead will be judged for what they "had done", not "what they will do".


According to John, even "DEATH and HADES" gave up the dead and they were judged, according to what they had done

Revelation 20:13 (ESV Strong's) And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

According to the 'slave', the "living" will be judged for what they do during the judgement.

Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.
 
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