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Featured Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Jul 11, 2016.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Who has the talking 'voice of the archangel' ( archangel's voice ) at 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ? _______ Isn't it the Lord Jesus ? _______
    What is the archangel's name ? _________ Isn't it Michael ? _______
    Doesn't the archangel have angelic armies ?________- Revelation 12:7-9; Isaiah 11:10
    Daniel 12:4,9 is in connection to the last days of badness on Earth - 2 Timothy 3
    So, Michael is a given name in Jesus' role as a heavenly ruler at both chapters 10 and 12 of Daniel. The time frame is what is different.
    Standing up in power, in Daniel, also refers to kingly or royal power or action - Daniel 11:2-4; Daniel 11:7; Daniel 11:20-21
    Archangel Michael, the great prince in royal kingly action, does now stand as King in the heavens.
     
  2. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Deeje,

    Then what is non-superficial explanation that you got?:rolleyes:
    I don't see Jesus focus on those things. He called His God "Father."
    Acts 2:2
    2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.NASU

    Where is the Lord here??:(

    Thanks
     
  3. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    In Acts 2:2, Paul is quoting Joel 2:32 where the tetragrammaton is written in the original text...so "the Lord" here is Jehovah, not Jesus.by Deeje

    I already see the correction in other posted message. Thanks;)
     
  4. Yoshua

    Yoshua Well-Known Member

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    Deeje,

    That story about Christendom and apostasy are what JW's keep saying to promote their beliefs. I remember that I've quoted you Paul is saying glory to Christ's church through all generation to generation. It is like you are saying that after the Apostles, there are no Christians, and there are no truth at all. The teachings of Christ is not corrupted, it is men who corrupt the teachings of Christ. Then why should God sent Jesus, for what purpose?o_O Why there is an Intl. students and Charles Taze Russell?

    The devil is the one who twist the truth that Christianity was corrupted by apostasy.

    Thanks
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is the response you gave me....
    Those scriptures mean nothing without an explanation from other scripture to fill in the blanks.

    e.g. Psalm 145:20....Who are the wicked whom God will destroy and when will this take place? How does it fit in with God's original purpose for mankind and this earth?

    Proverbs 10:27 was already explained....and at 2 Corinthians 4:18....what is it that we are fixing our eyes on? What is temporary and why? How is the unseen eternal?

    If we have no details, what do these verses mean on their own? Do we just fill in the blanks ourselves?

    When Jesus quoted OT scripture, he would have used the divine name because he said he had come to make God's name known. (John 17:26)

    In two incidences just off the top of my head, Jesus quoted passages from the Hebrew scriptures.....one he read in the synagogue (Luke 4:17-21) and the other he quoted in response to a question. (Matthew 22:34-40)

    In Luke 4:17-21, Jesus read Isaiah 61:1-2

    "The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn" (ASV)


    In Matthew 22:34-40 Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 6:5.
    " and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (ASV)

    If Jesus said he came to make his Father's name known, he would have said God's name aloud in those two instances. How could he teach us to pray for God's name to be "hallowed" if he never mentioned it?

    Which "Lord" are we talking about? What about some context instead of these snatches that you keep quoting.

    "When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? ......both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
    (ESV)

    This is the instance of Jesus' disciples (120 of them) receiving the holy spirit and were able to speak in different languages so that visitors to Jerusalem for the festival would hear the kingdom message in their mother tongue.

    Where is "the Lord" in Acts 2:2?....well, Jesus has returned to heaven where his Father was waiting for him to present the merit of his sacrifice. The holy spirit was promised to Jesus' disciples before he left the earth, and God granted them the power to manifest gifts that would help them to spread the good news.

    Jesus told them.....
    "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. (Acts 1:8 ESV) The "power" of God's spirit (which also empowered Jesus at his baptism) is what God sends to humans to accomplish his will. His will in connection with Christ's disciples was to spread the good news all over the world. His true disciples are doing just that.
     
    #1105 Deeje, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
  6. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    It isn't the Lord Jesus.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    'For the judge himself will enter the court room, with the cry of command (all rise), with the voice of a bailiff'. Does that mean the judge wears "2" hats? Are the judge and the bailiff the same person?

    If that verse said, "with a voice of an archangel", I might be inclined to believe it is Jesus, but it doesn't, it says, "with the voice".


    Daniel 10:5-6 (ESV Strong's) 5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, a man clothed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.

    Daniel 12:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people.


    Are you claiming that the person described in Daniel 10:5-6 is Jesus, but then He uses the name Michael in Daniel 12? Or, is the man described in Daniel 10 someone different all together, not Jesus or Michael?

    If you claim the Man that is described in Daniel 10 is the same as Michael in Daniel 12, then please explain the following,

    Daniel 10:12-13 (ESV Strong's) 12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. 13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me

    Who is talking here? The person described in verses 5 and 6!
     
  7. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Jesus "quoted" the divine name "twice" in 3 years, as recorded in the gospels, and that means He made the divine name known? He never called God by the divine name when talking to Him or about Him. He never put emphasis on saying the divine name, "My Father's name is", "you must use My father's name".

    The whole of John 17 is Jesus talking to His Father, and He never once said the divine name, but He did say a few times, "I have made your name known". How did He do that if He never "said" that name?

    There is only one name, the "name" of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    John 17:11 (ESV Strong's) 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

    Matthew 28:19 (ESV Strong's) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    Acts 2:38 (ESV Strong's) 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 10:48 (ESV Strong's) 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
     
  8. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    How is it that Adam could pay for his sin with his own sinful life, but his children needs a perfect sacrifice for our sins?
     
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  9. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

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    In 1 Thes 4:16, the grammar and broader context create a separation of Christ and the voice of "an" archangel, not "the" archangel. No definite article in the Greek manuscripts. In addition, to describe Jesus as "the" archangel [Lord] descending with a voice of an archangel makes about as much sense as to describe a human shouting with a voice of a human.

    He does. But Kings usually have a general(s) , who are rulers in their own right, running the military. As one of the chief princes' (Dan 10:13), Michael could have certainly been one of the Lord's subordinate generals.

    Don't see any relevance here to Michael being Jesus.

    Context is key. Those verses are prophecies of actual human kings (rulers) and their kingdoms. We know this because Daniel 11:4 states "his kingdom shall be broken". Do you really believe Christ's/Michael's kingdom will ever be broken?
     
  10. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    The Trinity is much like the governing body of the witnesses, they are 7 individuals which are considered to be "the slave" Jesus asked about in Matthew. If 7 humans can come together and become a "composite" slave, why can't the creator be 3 different entities and when they come together, they are a "composite" God?
     
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  11. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    That is a good question! Can I take bets on it being even addressed? I bet NO. Since I began trolling the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, I have been stumped each time with their pronoun. Is it, The governing body it; or is it, The governing body they? Does anybody know?
     
  12. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    It is the governing body, "they" becoming "the" composite slave.
     
  13. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    I think you mean it is "they" becoming "it", so the correct pronoun is it, which reminds me of the Bible beasts. What else in the Bible is a they that becomes an it?
    I would make a member wrong even though he might be right. If one governing body member does not agree with the rest, he is wrong, even if he might be right.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Are you serious?

    John 21:25:
    "There are also, in fact, many other things that Jesus did, which if ever they were written in full detail, I suppose the world itself could not contain the scrolls written.

    Those were just off the top of my head...there were many more. Jesus also quoted three scriptures that contained the divine name when answering the devil when he was tempted after his baptism. (Luke 4:1-13) Those three Scriptures where he said "it is written" (Deuteronomy 8:3; Deuteronomy 10:20; Deuteronomy 6:16) I am sure there are many more instances because Jesus said he came to make his Father's name known.....why was that necessary? Because the Jews had decided to abandon the use of it, without God's permission or command. If God said it wasn't too sacred to be uttered, then why would man take it upon himself to eliminate it from his speech and then from God's own word?

    What a flimsy argument djh. When Jesus said we were to be baptized "in the name of the Father, and of the son and of the holy spirit", (Mounce Interlinear) he was not claiming that they were three parts of one God. He was affirming that those baptized fully understood the role that each played in the life of a dedicated Christian. Jesus never blurred the lines between himself and his Father. The Father was "the only true God" and Jesus was his "holy servant". (John 17:3; Acts 4:30) The holy spirit empowered God's servants to accomplish his will. There is no triune god and never was. Jesus never taught about this three headed god of whom he as an equal partner. The Jews did not worship this god, so neither did Jesus. [​IMG]

    You are getting all these scriptures muddled because you cannot discern between the name of the Father and the name of the son (two different entities with different names)....how many scriptures actually mention the holy spirit when Jesus and his Father are spoken about?

    John 17:2, 3 is a classic example. "For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (NLT) Where is the need to know the third and equal person of the trinity? Eternal life depends on knowing God and his Christ, but not the holy spirit? Is he not worth knowing? [​IMG]

    Can one part of God remain in heaven whilst a separate part of him is on earth? Can one part of God "send" an equal part of himself?....communicate with himself?....raise himself from the dead?....give himself authority? This nonsensical doctrine did not come from the Father or his written word.
     
    #1114 Deeje, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "The wages sin pays is death." Adam paid for his sin with his life. But there was no one to pay for the sins of Adam's now defective children, who inherited sin through no fault on their part. (Romans 5:12)

    Since perfect life was lost for them, only a perfect life could be offered in atonement. (at-one-ment) Equivalency is what the law demands and even God abides by his own law. It is perfect after all.

    Romans 5:15:
    "For if by one man’s trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many."

    Why did Jesus have to be born as a human child and give his life? Because he had to be the equivalent of Adam...a perfect life was lost for humanity so a perfect life was given to pay the debt and redeem those who were slaves to sin. Do you not understand the mechanics of the ransom djh?
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Because the nature of a slave is not quite equal to the nature of God...and Jehovah's "slave", when he called Israel his "witnesses" (Isaiah 43:10) was in the singular when he was speaking about the whole nation. So a slave can be a collective, but God is never spoken of that way. Only Christendom and paganism have a collective of gods.
     
  17. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Are you serious?

    John 21:25 (ESV Strong's) 25 Now there are also many other "things" that Jesus "did". Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

    It really doesn't matter how many times Jesus "quoted" OT scripture, or said, "it is written", He "NEVER" said LORD when He was talking to God or talking to people.


    Yes, Jesus came to make His Father's name known, so why "didn't" He use it when speaking to His Father?

    *** it-2 p. 464 Name ***
    A word or phrase that constitutes a distinctive designation of a person, place, animal, plant, or other object. Name” can mean a person’s reputation or the person himself.


    By Jesus saying, "in 'the name' of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit" He was affirming there were 'three' different roles at play?

    Did Peter understand that when he said,

    Acts 2:38 (ESV Strong's) 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Did he understand that when he 'commanded'

    Acts 10:48 (ESV Strong's) 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

    Or,

    Acts 19:3-5 (ESV Strong's) 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    How does that "affirm the role each played in the life of a dedicated Christian"?
     
  18. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Here are a few,

    Matthew 28:19 (ESV Strong's) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    John 14:26 (ESV Strong's) 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

    John 15:26 (ESV Strong's) 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

    Acts 7:55 (ESV Strong's) 55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

    Acts 10:38 (ESV Strong's) 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

    2 Corinthians 13:14 (ESV Strong's) 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

    That last one gets me, how can someone have "fellowship" with a "force"?
     
  19. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    Again, how could Adam pay for his sin with his own life, but we can't? After he rebelled, he was no better off than we are, it takes a perfect sacrifice, and Adam wasn't perfect!
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    When reading or quoting the OT, Jesus would have used the name he said he had come to "make known". Who did Jesus preach to? Only to Jews and they already worshipped the God that Jesus came to represent. His name had ceased to be uttered in Israel because men had taken it upon themselves to stop saying it and to eventually stop writing it. God's name was a statement of his purpose, not a mere label.

    Jesus was a son addressing his Father....do you call your father by his given name? The Bible writers however, had no reluctance in using God's name. It is there 780 times in the Psalms alone and 729 times in the book of Jeremiah, so why did the Israelites stop using it when God never told them to do that? When Jesus read or quoted scripture, he would have pronounced his Father's name because it was there in the text. He would not have followed the tradition of wicked men.

    Jehovah's reputation was inextricably tied to his unique name. No one else has that name even though many had names incorporating it. Most of all the "J" names in the Bible have "Jehovah" in their meaning....even "Jesus".


    As a recipient of the holy spirit himself, and one who bestowed it on others, Peter understood full well what being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ meant....he was a worshipper of the God Jesus came to represent and whose will he accomplished. Jesus Christ was the savior "sent" by the Father to save obedient ones who followed in his footsteps. (1 Peter 2:21)

    Since baptism "in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit" was to be undertaken after Jesus left the earthly scene, a clearer understanding of baptism was unfolding. John's baptism differed from Jesus' baptism. Jesus' baptism was the model for his followers and symbolized a death to a former life and a resurrection to a life dedicated to the doing of the Father's first will in all things. (Matthew 6:33) Some were baptized into Christ's death. Then there is the baptism of fire......Do you understand the difference in all these baptisms? Do you know why the Jews did not practice baptism until the time of John?
     
    #1120 Deeje, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
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