Let's talk about Satan

[earl613]

Satan= adversary, a persons mindset that is adverse to a certain purpose. Thats it! EGO!

 

[Tumah]

Ah, I understand. In one strand of gnostic Satanism, the will of the creator is seen as something that should be opposed, as he's merely seen as an imperfect demiurge, and therefore returning to the oneness is the aim, as it's the will of the higher divinity (however, the oneness is not normally seen as complete none-existence, but you gotta ask a real gnostic about that).

That's a bit dissimilar in that the Creator is the only existence outside the creation in Judaism.

That way it seems to be often in the big religions, that the normal members of the religion aren't expected to delve into theological specifics.

I'm not sure Judaism qualifies as a "big religion". And in my religion, I am a normal member and my clergy isn't expected to delve into theological specifics any more than I am, unless they were hired to engage the congregation in theology. I definitely wouldn't ask the rabbi of my synagogue such a question as I'm doubtful he'd be knowledgeable in this area. There's not supposed to be laymen in Judaism.

 

[1137]

Fundamentalist do not fear freedom or Satan. Satan certainly isn't a form of anything.

Satan is a perverted Form, the most "pure" interpretation being the Egyptian god Set. Set is the "devil" in an Osirian, and therefore Christian, Aeon.

 

[GodsVoice]

The passage is historically interpreted to refer to one's mortal father .

God had to use what is visible to help reveal what is invisible to man.

 

[James3]

Do you believe Satan is a very real deity, or is Satan just a symbol? It seems to me that monotheism would require the latter, but what's your viewpoint?

Abdu'l-Baha deals with 'evil' and by extension 'Satan' in this way:

The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man’s characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements...therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.

-Abdu'l Baha, Some Answered Questions, pg 263-264

 

[cosmogenes]

Satan is referred as "the god of this system of things" at 2 Corinthians 4:4. Jesus called him the ruler of this world. At John 14:30 Jesus said; "the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me." I believe Satan is an apostate angel who rebelled against the true God. Jesus said about Satan; "That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44) Satan's destruction is certain, according to the Bible.(Hebrews 2:14)

"Satan" or "Hasatan" was adopted by Judaism from the Zoroastrian religion, where his name was AHRIMAN and earlier ANGRA MAINYU, the "evil spirit". It was an invention of the Persian prophet Zarathustra who did not want to credit evil to his "Good Lord" Ahura Mazda" who became YHWH in Judaism and THEOS/DEUS (English "God") in Christianity.
None of those fantasized beings are real, of course.

 

[cosmogenes]

Abdu'l-Baha deals with 'evil' and by extension 'Satan' in this way:

The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man’s characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements...therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.

-Abdu'l Baha, Some Answered Questions, pg 263-264

Abdul Baha is correct, except that he should have also defined "God" as being what he calls "Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind." A "conception of the mind."

 

[Tumah]

Hey RabbiO,

Well ... the facts are - that Jesus WAS a real person - even the Talmud states that fact - that He was "hanged on the eve of Passover for sorcery and leading Israel astray." (Sanhedrin Folio 43a).

...about 75 years before the NT claims Jesus was born...

Also ... last year, 25 prominent rabbis from Israel and abroad, for the first time admitted that Jesus was a real person and brought a "double goodness to the world." (Orthodox Rabbis Bring Jesus Home for Christmas).

That's not what it says, is it. No Orthodox Jews ever denied Jesus was a real person since - as you pointed out - it states as much in the Talmud. Nor did they make the statement that "Jesus brought double goodness to the world". They were quoting a much earlier rabbi who spoke about the two good things that came out of Jesus. But as the original article (the one your article links to) makes clear, "Our partnership in no way minimizes the ongoing differences between the two communities and two religions."

I should also point out that at least one of the major rabbis of this organization is a highly controversial figure.

The greatest Rabbi of the 20th & 21st century (even greater than Menachem Schneerson)

Who do you think you are to make the claim of which rabbi is greater than another???

- Yitzhak Kaduri - claimed that Yeshua (Jesus Christ) came to him and addressed himself as the Moshiach: (

).

No he didn't.

In fact, the Yeshivah Head of Rabbi Kadouri's Yeshivah says in this video that Rabbi Kadouri would refer to Jesus simply as "his name and his remembrance should be erased (the acronym of which spells the Hebrew name for Jesus)" if the subject ever came up.

These are just some of the facts ... for starters.

Shalom

Judging by this post, I'm not sure you know what "facts" are.

 

[RabbiO]

Judging by this post, I'm not sure you know what "facts" are.

תודה רבה

 

[mbdrums]

Of course not all of Kaduri's students wanted to believe that Yeshua is The Moshiach, but there ARE many who admit that Kaduri taught them that Yeshua came to him and claimed He was Moshiach. If He didn't, why did Kaduri have his note opened AFTER his death?? WHY - because he knew that if the world knew he believed that Yeshua was Moshiach, Judaism would condemn him of being a heretic!

BTW ... How do explain the Kaduri student who became a follower of Yeshua and claimed that Kaduri taught about Yeshua as Moshiach, as there are other videos of Kaduri students claiming the same??!!

I said in my post that 25 rabbis - NOT ALL rabbis made the statement.

Also ... many of Schneerson's followers claimed that HE was Moshiach - and still do to this day!!
The trouble is, Schneerson did not end all suffering, nor did he bring world peace, so how would he be any different than Jesus Christ, who Judaism claims did not meet those criteria?

 

[Tumah]

Jesus is despised TODAY, just as He was when He was walking the earth 1,983 years ago, which proves that the passage in the Talmud is most definitely the same Yeshua/Jesus Christ of the Gospels!

You get me wrong. I'm not saying that the two aren't the same. I'm saying that the NT was based on a figure that lived not 40 years before the NT but about a hundred years before the NT. Then the authors adapted this figure to a more recent time period.

I always have to chuckle when people try to bring up the fact that there were others during the Ist Century and before who claimed to be the Messiah - even Christ, Himself, said there would be many others who would claim to be the Messiah! Where are they now??!!! Can you name them all??!!! Do they still have BILLIONS of followers TODAY??!!!

That's a good argument for the authenticity of Islam too.

Let me point you to just a few of hundreds of websites that prove this and if Jesus were walking the earth today, they would crucify Him NOW just as they did then:
Ten Biggest Lies about Yeshua, His Jewishness, and What Some Call ‘Jewish Christianity’
Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus
S.C.J. FAQ: Section 17.3. Countering Missionaries: Countering the Question: Why Don't Jews Believe in Jesus as the Messiah?
Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus | The difference between Judaism and Christianity
Ask the Rabbi
Isaiah 53 Teaches that Jesus is NOT the Messiah

There is no reason to bring websites that there are people that would crucify Jesus. That's the punishment for someone who is seen by witnesses leading Jews astray. If we still were able to do capital punishment, we'd do it to him today too. You don't need to prove it, I think its obvious.

 

[Tumah]

Of course not all of Kaduri's students wanted to believe that Yeshua is The Moshiach, but there ARE many who admit that Kaduri taught them that Yeshua came to him and claimed He was Moshiach. If He didn't, why did Kaduri have his note opened AFTER his death?? WHY - because he knew that if the world knew he believed that Yeshua was Moshiach, Judaism would condemn him of being a heretic!

Because the ones who started that claim knew that if he was alive when they claimed he wrote the letter, he'd be available to contradict their claim. The whole story was made up by some messianics.
In the video I linked, they interviewed his son, the head of his yeshivah and his sextant. The only reason I can think of to not believe these three figures over some unnamed "student" is because it doesn't work out for you...

BTW ... How do explain the Kaduri student who became a follower of Yeshua and claimed that Kaduri taught about Yeshua as Moshiach, as there are other videos of Kaduri students claiming the same??!!

He made it up...

I said in my post that 25 rabbis - NOT ALL rabbis made the statement.

Then you have never read the original article.

Also ... many of Schneerson's followers claimed that HE was Moshiach - and still do to this day!!

And they are marginalized from the general Orthodox population and distanced by the normal Chabad members.

The trouble is, Schneerson did not end all suffering, nor did he bring world peace, so how would he be any different than Jesus Christ, who Judaism claims did not meet those criteria?

They interpret a Talmudic passage as saying that the messiah can be someone who is already dead. But most people do not interpret that passage that way and for this reason and well as many others, we believe that both the Lubavitcher Rebbe and (להבדיל אלף הבדלות) Jesus are not the messiah.

 

[Tumah]

תודה רבה

המלאכה מרובה

 

[RabbiO]

Jesus is despised TODAY, just as He was when He was walking the earth 1,983 years ago.....

So, we move from a disagreement about the Satan into a post that manages to combine arrogance, ignorance, preaching, proselytizing, and anti-Semitic ranting.

Not bad. It usually takes more than 5 posts for someone to display their true colors.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Satan is an evil spirit, in my view. I only believe in one God. Can also be seen as a metaphor for the darker aspects of human nature, too.

 

[omega2xx]

No, it's not absurd at all. It's what the earliest Christians believed. In the third century, the Christian writer, Lactantius, wrote:

“Before creating the world, God produced a spirit like himself, replete with the virtues of the Father. Later He made another, in whom the mark of divine origin was erased, because this one was besmirched by the poison of jealousy and turned therefore from good to evil. He was jealous of his older brother who, remaining united with the Father, insured his affection unto himself. This being who from good became bad is called devil by the Greeks."

First, you do not know if Lactantius was a Christian. What he said makes him a false prophet. The earliest Christians did not believe that. It is not in the Teachings of Paul and that is all they had to go by.

I accidently deleted the paragraph I am about to address, so some of it may not apply to what you said. Teh 2 verses you quoted, Romans and Hebrew, is addressed only to Christians, not to everyone, and thatg is not wha the early church believed.

Unique among all the sons of God was the one we know as Jesus Christ. Unlike the rest of us, He was with His Father in the beginning. Unlike us, He was perfect in every conceivable way and had all of the divine attributes and qualities His Father had. The shared a unity of will and purpose to such an extent that together, they were known (along with the Holy Ghost) both individually and collectively, as God. Finally, even though we were all the spirit offspring of our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ was also His Father's "Only Begotten" Son. Under His Father's direction, Jesus Christ created our universe. He was chosen prior to His birth in Bethlehem to be the lamb who would be slain for our sins.

Most of that is true, but Jesus did snot create teh universe. Gen 1:1 is Elohim, God. Jesus wa NEVER choen and you have no real Scriptue that says He was.

Another of the spirit sons of God was one named Lucifer. He was a proud and rebellious son who sought to exalt himself above his Father and who was cast out of Heaven for attempting to do so. When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, he was disowned by his Father, and lost his right to ever again be known as a son of God (or a brother to the greatest of God's sons, Jesus Christ). If Jesus and Satan were sons of the same Father, they were spirit brothers, a fact which in no way reflects positively on Satan or negatively on our Savior.

Another false doctrine of LDs. Lucifer was an angel, a cherub(Ezk 18:4) Angles are not sons of God, they are not born, they are created.

 

[Robert Landbeck]

Do you believe Satan is a very real deity, or is Satan just a symbol? It seems to me that monotheism would require the latter, but what's your viewpoint?

Feel free to include other "dark lords" and religious text if you want.

I have always thought of the quote from Mahatma Ghandi worthy of contemplation: "the only devils that exist are those running around inside the hearts of men"

That being said, if there is a particular manifestation of evil, greater than all others that might be represented by the expression SATAN, it would be necessary to first know exactly what is the greatest good as virtue and moral conduct, called righteousness. Unfortunately, such insight has not yet been revealed to men.

But for the sake of argument, if a second coming ever happened, and Christ presented humanity with a new defined, perfect virtue to be realized by faith, a perfect good, than any that stood against that perfect goodness would have to be considered evil. And if that same revealed perfect goodness was antithetical to existing religious traditions, and the priests of those traditions acted against Christ and this new revelation, perfect evil would be the anti-Christ and the greatest of them all, the arch deceiver, would be SATAN.

 

[Onyx]

I have always thought of the quote from Mahatma Ghandi worthy of contemplation: "the only devils that exist are those running around inside the hearts of men"

Great quote, thanks!

 

[Onyx]

BTW what religion is xeper?

Xeper means "I Have Come Into Being", or moving forward in terms of self-evolvement.

Instead of looking for answers, I prefer the perspective that the answers are looking for me. This is true Satanism - responding to the call of one's own higher potential.

 

[omega2xx]

Sure.

"let's first establish that Evil DOES Exist - something which even Science admits to"

Since you rode into this on your white steed, why don't you explain how one -sciences out- evil?

My steed in in the Barn. You must have someone else in mind.