Let's talk about Satan

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Well ... let's first establish that Evil DOES Exist - something which even Science admits to, but cannot explain it's origin! Second of all, let's also establish that Jesus Christ was a REAL Person - which even militant Atheist, Richard Dawkins, admitted in a debate with John Lennox. Third ... to quote C.S. Lewis, "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Now ... if we establish that Jesus was a real person and was who He claimed to be, then there are 9 times in the Gospels where Jesus mentions Satan, He speaks to Satan - directly as a being - and has interaction with, within a 40 day period, while walking through the wilderness. Jesus also spoke directly with Demons, who even identified themselves.

Therefore ... based on those facts, it is quite obvious that Satan is a REAL being, unless of course, you don't believe in God or that Jesus was an equal with God, The Father (a claim He made on numerous occasions) and was just some nice fellow or a lunatic.

Please link a peer reviewed scientific paper or thesis that shows evil to be objectively measurable. I will of course be holding my breath in anticipation.

 

[omega2xx]

Satan is a perversion of the Form of individual freedom and existence, that which goes against the gods. It's a very real and present force in the life of human beings. I think our fear of freedom, responsibility, uncertainty, and change caused us to demonize this aspect of ourselves and therefore its Form.

Fundamentalist do not fear freedom or Satan. Satan certainly isn't a form of anything.

 

[Shlomoh]

Viole asks if our boy keeps Sabbath, which I think is a funny remark. But when is Sabbath; which day?
SATAN in Hebrew means ADVERSARY, and in Jewish tradition he is nothing more than a trouble making angel as he is pictured in the book of Job. The interesting thing is that Job's name [IYOV in Hebrew] itself means 'one who attracts enemies'.
All that aside, Satan obviously evolved into a much more sinister character in Christianity, either because the Christian idea of Satan was taken from a minor sect of Judaism or because the idea grew out of a completely nonJewish source. In any event, Satan is not that sinister in Judaism.
Martin Luther supposedly once said, "Don't rely on Satan to draw you to sin. Commit them independently on your own."
What this is saying is that Satan really has no ultimate power over humans. If I believed in Satan, he would have no power over me because in order for that to happen, I'd have to give him that power.
In the final analysis, I can't see a real religious role for the boy in our lives, and without a religious role, he has no role.

If we look at Isaiah 45, we see that there is no need for Satan as we understand him. God does Satan's work very well all on His own.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things."

Good job, Lord! We won't question why you do all those awesome things. It's enough no know that You are in charge and that as long as You create evil, then I am off the hook. Besides, if I were a real Christian [and I'm not. I'm not even a fake one] I'd say that according to Xtian doctrine, I can't help being a bad boy; it's in my nature, AND I don't have to even trying to be good. That would be human hubris since God alreasy told us that we don't need any Law. HE is the Law.
Satan is nothing other than the modern expression of the old Persian deity of darkness, the idea of which was dumped on the Jews when Jews were under their domination, and now we dumped him on YOU people. So chill out because you will be burning soon. And who gave me that idea? Could it have been -------- SATAN?????

 

[Onyx]

Fundamentalist do not fear freedom or Satan. Satan certainly isn't a form of anything.

Theory of Forms - Wikipedia

I think this is what is meant by "Forms".

 

[omega2xx]

Please link a peer reviewed scientific paper or thesis that shows evil to be objectively measurable. I will of course be holding my breath in anticipation.

Please cut and paste where they said evil can be objectively measurable

 

[omega2xx]

Theory of Forms - Wikipedia

I think this is what is meant by "Forms".

Thanks.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

I think I understand, but would be interested in your definition of "angel". Thank you.

They Bible says Satan fell, yet later he is at God's right h

Do you believe Satan is a very real deity, or is Satan just a symbol? It seems to me that monotheism would require the latter, but what's your viewpoint?

Feel free to include other "dark lords" and religious text if you want.

Satan makes no sense.
Supposedly he fell near the beginning of time for refusing to worship man. Yet he was still at God's right hand to accuse Job. And God allowed him to torment Job.

 

[Liu]

As a conceptual idea, you're right, it isn't bad. But ultimately, it also contradicts the Divine Will for a creation to exist. So although we do have a concept of becoming less in order to more fully express the Divine, completely ceasing to exist in that way is considered bad. The resolution that we look forward to is that the creation becomes an expression of G-d's Unity thus ending the contradiction and satisfying satan's conceptual source as well as the Divine Will for our existence.

Ah, I understand. In gnostic Satanism, the will of the creator is seen as something that should be opposed, as he's considered to be merely an imperfect demiurge, and therefore in one strand of this Satanism, returning to the oneness is the aim, as it's the will of the higher divinity (however, the oneness is not normally seen as complete non-existence, but you gotta ask a real gnostic about that).

Its common to whoever learns it. There's a lot of literature in Judaism, I mean a lot. So its entirely dependent on what area of study in Jewish literature someone delves in to. Its not required that a person be knowledgeable of non-halachic (having to do with Jewish law) areas of study, nor is this a required belief. The only reason that I happen to know it, is because my rabbi mentioned it to me in passing.

That way it seems to be often in the big religions, that the normal members of the religion aren't expected to delve into theological specifics. Kinda sad, but not surprising.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

Jungian Shadow projection is often associated with Satan.

Christians are forever linking everything to Satan, or God.
They declared that the symbol called the Hammer of Thor is a cross.
And one woman about 20 years ago wanted to do away with Santa. Why?
S A N T A
S A T A N

 

[mbdrums]

Hey RabbiO,

Well ... the facts are - that Jesus WAS a real person - even the Talmud states that fact - that He was "hanged on the eve of Passover for sorcery and leading Israel astray." (Sanhedrin Folio 43a). Also ... last year, 25 prominent rabbis from Israel and abroad, for the first time admitted that Jesus was a real person and brought a "double goodness to the world." (Orthodox Rabbis Bring Jesus Home for Christmas).

The greatest Rabbi of the 20th & 21st century (even greater than Menachem Schneerson) - Yitzhak Kaduri - claimed that Yeshua (Jesus Christ) came to him and addressed himself as the Moshiach: (

).

These are just some of the facts ... for starters.

Shalom

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Please cut and paste where they said evil can be objectively measurable

Sure.

"let's first establish that Evil DOES Exist - something which even Science admits to"

Since you rode into this on your white steed, why don't you explain how one -sciences out- evil?

 

[DragonHawk1959]

Satan, Devil, Dragon, Lucifer, Wicked One, etc. are all biblical terms meaning the information that is processed into visible images and thoughts that give us people a contrast of "good and evil" which are all subjective according to each person's created senses. Some people fear images and thoughts that other people don't.

The other deceptive "veil" that keeps people from knowing who they are in the Mind of God is the Beast which is the information that is processed into images, musical notes, words, lyrics for song, poetry, shapes, etc. that are then brought into the world by human hands using earthen materials to shape, mold, draw, paint, write, type them into the various images that other people can see and use. The Beast keeps all the people busy building things with their human hands so most everyone worships the Beast and the world they see is formed from Satan.

Christ is the pure information that is revealed to us servants who testify to them. Christ does not contain the information called Satan and the Beast. By testifying to Christ, God reveals Himself and His voice until it learns how it was created and how all these visible images are observed and experienced with our created senses.

I create the light and the dark
I create good, and bring forth evil
None who hate not their father can follow me.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

They Bible says Satan fell, yet later he is at God's right h


Satan makes no sense.
Supposedly he fell near the beginning of time for refusing to worship man. Yet he was still at God's right hand to accuse Job. And God allowed him to torment Job.

Satan was kicked to the curb, or rather earth (not true either but that's the common story) for gathering up an mutinous crew and rebelling against God, true. Also true that Satan was Gods most beloved beautiful creation until he really screwed up. But in Jobs case Satan was against God mocking Jobs faith telling God Job would reject God if he took all the worldly goods that God had lavished on him. Job did not reject God even after losing everything thus humiliating and proving God right and of course Satan WRONG. Most biblical experts say the story of Job was parable and I agree.

It was a story that was meant to teach and not an real historical event, as were many OT and NT stories etc. Most Christian school children know that the bible uses many literary tools such as parable to teach those that want to learn about God. The bible also has books based not only on parable but literal historical events, practical living such dont eat pork its dirty even though trichinosis (a swine to human parasite worm that infects humans) wasn't known until this century! There are books in the bible meant only as beautiful poetry etc etc. When a reader does a little study they will understand the bible much better.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

Hey RabbiO,

Well ... the facts are - that Jesus WAS a real person - even the Talmud states that fact - that He was "hanged on the eve of Passover for sorcery and leading Israel astray." (Sanhedrin Folio 43a). Also ... last year, 25 prominent rabbis from Israel and abroad, for the first time admitted that Jesus was a real person and brought a "double goodness to the world." (Orthodox Rabbis Bring Jesus Home for Christmas).

The greatest Rabbi of the 20th & 21st century (even greater than Menachem Schneerson) - Yitzhak Kaduri - claimed that Yeshua (Jesus Christ) came to him and addressed himself as the Moshiach: (

).

These are just some of the facts ... for starters.

Shalom

Doesn't really matter. Judaism has recognized many as Messiah. One some 40 years before Jesus succeeded mainly in getting himself and his followers crucified in the valley in which they made their last stand.

 

[GodsVoice]

I create the light and the dark
I create good, and bring forth evil
None who hate not their father can follow me.

All the flesh of man was formed to hate the Father of them all. This is why all the flesh of man that was formed from information called Satan and influenced by the Beast to build false gods with their human hands will be killed and burned up with high heat called hot molten lava.

 

[Katzpur]

That is absurd.

No, it's not absurd at all. It's what the earliest Christians believed. In the third century, the Christian writer, Lactantius, wrote:

“Before creating the world, God produced a spirit like himself, replete with the virtues of the Father. Later He made another, in whom the mark of divine origin was erased, because this one was besmirched by the poison of jealousy and turned therefore from good to evil. He was jealous of his older brother who, remaining united with the Father, insured his affection unto himself. This being who from good became bad is called devil by the Greeks."

Like Christians anciently, Mormons believe that all human beings are the offspring of God and that He is the Father of our spirits. (See Acts 17:29 and Hebrews 12:9 if you doubt these doctrines to be biblical.) Unlike traditional Christians, we believe that all of us lived in God's presence prior to being born. We were spirit beings at that time, without bodies of flesh and bones. As the spirit sons and daughters of God, we were all brothers and sisters to each other.

Unique among all the sons of God was the one we know as Jesus Christ. Unlike the rest of us, He was with His Father in the beginning. Unlike us, He was perfect in every conceivable way and had all of the divine attributes and qualities His Father had. The shared a unity of will and purpose to such an extent that together, they were known (along with the Holy Ghost) both individually and collectively, as God. Finally, even though we were all the spirit offspring of our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ was also His Father's "Only Begotten" Son. Under His Father's direction, Jesus Christ created our universe. He was chosen prior to His birth in Bethlehem to be the lamb who would be slain for our sins.

Another of the spirit sons of God was one named Lucifer. He was a proud and rebellious son who sought to exalt himself above his Father and who was cast out of Heaven for attempting to do so. When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, he was disowned by his Father, and lost his right to ever again be known as a son of God (or a brother to the greatest of God's sons, Jesus Christ). If Jesus and Satan were sons of the same Father, they were spirit brothers, a fact which in no way reflects positively on Satan or negatively on our Savior.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

Satan was kicked to the curb, or rather earth (not true either but that's the common story) for gathering up an mutinous crew and rebelling against God, true. Also true that Satan was Gods most beloved beautiful creation until he really screwed up. But in Jobs case Satan was against God mocking Jobs faith telling God Job would reject God if he took all the worldly goods that God had lavished on him. Job did not reject God even after losing everything thus humiliating and proving God right and of course Satan WRONG. Most biblical experts say the story of Job was parable and I agree.

It was a story that was meant to teach and not an real historical event, as were many OT and NT stories etc. Most Christian school children know that the bible uses many literary tools such as parable to teach those that want to learn about God. The bible also has books based not only on parable but literal historical events, practical living such dont eat pork its dirty even though trichinosis (a wine to human parasite worm that infects humans) wasn't known until this century! There are books in the bible meant only as beautiful poetry etc etc. When a reader does a little study they will understand the bible much better.

I am quite familiar with biblical hermeneutics. Rules dreamed up after the fact to support a conclusion already arrived at.
Let us try something.
How would you interpreted the story of the Centurion's Faith?

 

[SAHAJANANDA]

Do you believe Satan is a very real deity, or is Satan just a symbol? It seems to me that monotheism would require the latter, but what's your viewpoint?

Feel free to include other "dark lords" and religious text if you want.

I do not believe in an entity called Satan, independent of God. There is only one God or infinite being and that infinite being is absolute good. Absolute good is that which does not have an opposite called evil. The Good that has an opposite called evil is relative good. Where there is relative good there will be relative evil. These two cannot be separated. Another name for Satan is Devil, diabolose. Devil is that which divides. God or Truth is Unity. Devil is division. So we can say that any person, any belief that divides humanity is Devil. This devil exists. But it is born of ignorance. It does not have permanent existence. Just when light comes the darkened disappears, so also when the Unity arrives divisions disappear or devil or Satan disappears.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

All the flesh of man was formed to hate the Father of them all. This is why all the flesh of man that was formed from information called Satan and influenced by the Beast to build false gods with their human hands will be killed and burned up with high heat called hot molten lava.

The passage is historically interpreted to refer to one's mortal father .

 

[mbdrums]

Hey Liu,

Many thanks for the response!

Science, first, has no explanation as to where consciousness comes from. To quote Science Daily, "Consciousness arises as an emergent property of the human mind. Yet basic questions about the precise timing, location and dynamics of the neural event(s) allowing conscious access to information are not clearly and unequivocally determined." Therefore, if Science has no definitive explanation for the origin of consciousness, let alone the origin of the Universe, which they are still unknowing about (with hundreds of different theories), then how can Science determine what is right and wrong? In that case, then what is determined to be "good or bad//evil," is relative only to what each individual's concept is and in many societies, killing another individual or cutting out their hearts and sacrificing them is considered good, or as Hitler's mass executions were considered to be good for the Reich.