Let's talk about Satan

[omega2xx]

Thanks. So they are the messengers of God? Able to reveal transcendental concepts to our more limited existence perhaps?

Angels are spirits ministering to those who will inherit salvation---Heb 1:14. There is no indication they can reveal any concepts to those they minister to. That is the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Onyx]

Angels are spirits ministering to those who will inherit salvation---Heb 1:14. There is no indication they can reveal any concepts to those they minister to. That is the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you, I looked it up, but would like to encourage people to go ahead and cut & paste verses to save people time.

In Mormonism he is the spirit brother of Jesus who wanted to be the Messiah and when God chose Jesus instead of him he rebelled and vowed to be evil.

Interesting, can you elaborate? Thanks.

 

[omega2xx]

I bet G-d didn't either, but He observed the Sabbath, in at least one occasion.

Source please.

I am asking because it might be dangerous if you get a day off every week, while he does not.

Ciao

- viole

God works every day---Jn 5:17

 

[omega2xx]

Out of curiousity. Does the absence of a verse saying X, indicates that X is not true?

By the way, I believe He at least observed the first Sabbath. He used that as an example for the next ones, for Thor sake.

Ciao

- viole

Think about the 3 requirements for the Sabbath, which is for us, not for Him"

--Remember it. God can't forget it.
--Keep it holy. God can do nothing else. He made it holy.
--no work. God works ever day keeping His universe working properly.

 

[omega2xx]

In Mormonism he is the spirit brother of Jesus who wanted to be the Messiah and when God chose Jesus instead of him he rebelled and vowed to be evil.

That is absurd. It must come form the BOM, and if anything in the BOM contradicts what is God. inspied word, it need to be put in the round file.

It is ridiculous to use 2 books that contradict each other---You can serve God and mammon.

 

[omega2xx]

Thank you, I looked it up, but would like to encourage people to go ahead and cut & paste verses to save people time.

Because some versions say same things a little differently, I think it is better for them to read it in their own version.

Interesting, can you elaborate? Thanks.

I would like to encourage everyone to backquote. We we have many irons in the fire, it is hard to remember them all.

BTW what religion is xeper?

 

[Blastcat]

Do you believe Satan is a very real deity, or is Satan just a symbol? It seems to me that monotheism would require the latter, but what's your viewpoint?

Feel free to include other "dark lords" and religious text if you want.

Satan is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't see "IT" at all, but then again, I'm an agnostic and a skeptic of religious claims.

 

[Blastcat]

Spiritual being under the orders of God. Usually have a job given to them by God, some are postmen.

Are some divine urban waste disposal engineers?

 

[Blastcat]

Out of curiousity. Does the absence of a verse saying X, indicates that X is not true?

- viole

What do we say when we don't find something?

 

[Liu]

Both.
Satan is the name of a lot of different cultural concepts. I don't know whether any of the entities that are called that really exist, but the things they represent obviously do, in most cases.
In my own religion, it's one of the names I use to refer to the divine that is in all, since many of the concepts related to Satan represent aspects of this.

The short answer is basically like Flankerl said.
The longer answer is that they are a few successive degrees worth of anthropomorphicized emanations of concepts.
So for instance satan. In Judaism, G-d's Oneness is absolute. But on a certain level, there is a contradiction to that Oneness, in that we also exist. The resolution to that is that we should cease to exist in the face of G-d's Oneness. That resolution is the source of satan - the angel whose function is to end our existence within the means provided to him. Every sin we do tips the world (on a general level) and ourselves (on a personal level) towards destruction and by extension, to the resolution.

Fascinating - that's pretty much what some anticosmic-gnostic Satanists seem to believe.
Is returning to that oneness seen as good or bad? It sounds like it is considered good, which would mean sinning is good.
Also, how common is this view in Judaism? I so far only knew it from Cabbalah, and I don't know how wide-spread that is.

 

[Liu]

Both.
Satan is the name of a lot of different cultural concepts. I don't know whether any of the entities that are called that really exist, but the things they represent obviously do, in most cases.
In my own religion, it's one of the names I use to refer to the divine that is in all, since many of the concepts related to Satan represent aspects of this.

When we use the word ''archetype'', broadly, it has to specific. What you are talking about is very subjective,

perhaps some Christian group, Judaism, or something else, version is an ''archetype'', and that's your subjective archetype.

That's great, but that does not mean that ''satan'', is an archetype

I didn't even use the word archetype, what are you talking about? I was trying to refer to all those archetypes, entities, etc. pp. which are related to Satan at once, so it was meant to be very broad.

 

[Tumah]

Genesis 2:2

Can you point to the words that say, "G-d observed the Sabbath"?

 

[Liu]

This is subjective, though. This will vary by your 'version' of 'satan'

Of course my version is subjective. The divine is probably not something we can really understand completely, so all we perceive of it is only subjective parts.
Probably I should have mentioned it, but it seemed too obvious to me.

However, in that part of my post you seem to refer to I wasn't even talking about my own version, but making a general statement about culture. It's a fact that there are tons of different concepts that are called Satan.

 

[mbdrums]

Well ... let's first establish that Evil DOES Exist - something which even Science admits to, but cannot explain it's origin! Second of all, let's also establish that Jesus Christ was a REAL Person - which even militant Atheist, Richard Dawkins, admitted in a debate with John Lennox. Third ... to quote C.S. Lewis, "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Now ... if we establish that Jesus was a real person and was who He claimed to be, then there are 9 times in the Gospels where Jesus mentions Satan, He speaks to Satan - directly as a being - and has interaction with, within a 40 day period, while walking through the wilderness. Jesus also spoke directly with Demons, who even identified themselves.

Therefore ... based on those facts, it is quite obvious that Satan is a REAL being, unless of course, you don't believe in God or that Jesus was an equal with God, The Father (a claim He made on numerous occasions) and was just some nice fellow or a lunatic.

 

[Liu]

Well ... let's first establish that Evil DOES Exist - something which even Science admits to, but cannot explain it's origin! Second of all, let's also establish that Jesus Christ was a REAL Person - which even militant Atheist, Richard Dawkins, admitted in a debate with John Lennox. Third ... to quote C.S. Lewis, "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Now ... if we establish that Jesus was a real person and was who He claimed to be, then there are 9 times in the Gospels where Jesus mentions Satan, He speaks to Satan - directly as a being - and has interaction with, within a 40 day period, while walking through the wilderness. Jesus also spoke directly with Demons, who even identified themselves.

Therefore ... based on those facts, it is quite obvious that Satan is a REAL being, unless of course, you don't believe in God or that Jesus was an equal with God, The Father (a claim He made on numerous occasions) and was just some nice fellow or a lunatic.

Sound logic, if we assume your axioms to be true, and additionally assume that the gospels are a reliable source. However, you didn't define what you mean by evil. So I'm left wondering why you'd say that its origin is not explained by science.

 

[MrMrdevincamus]

Do you believe Satan is a very real deity, or is Satan just a symbol? It seems to me that monotheism would require the latter, but what's your viewpoint?

Feel free to include other "dark lords" and religious text if you want.

In my opinion the devil or Satan is very real but like God Satan expresses or manifests itself as a 'spirit' in his dealings with man rather than an material entity, at least in the current period of time. However, over the epochs of time I would say the devil did manifest as a 'real' or 'materialistic' entity on many occasions. Also just like angels, aka messengers from God, demons aka the devils angels and other 'entities' manifested more often and in a materialistic state than Satan itself. I think the ability for demons to trespass into our universe can be accomplished by many methods, some by natural means such as tears in space time and the merging or blending of dimensions (ie other universes as in meta-verses or the many universe theories) that usually remain distinct and individually unique. This tear or forced blending of dimensions may could be accomplished by binary black holes colliding or other 'natural' events that tear open our nice God protected universe like a cosmic can opener. Anyway that is my opinion...
God bless this forum~

 

[Tumah]

Fascinating - that's pretty much what some anticosmic-gnostic Satanists seem to believe.
Is returning to that oneness seen as good or bad? It sounds like it is considered good, which would mean sinning is good.
Also, how common is this view in Judaism? I so far only knew it from Cabbalah, and I don't know how wide-spread that is.

As a conceptual idea, you're right, it isn't bad. But ultimately, it also contradicts the Divine Will for a creation to exist. So although we do have a concept of becoming less in order to more fully express the Divine, completely ceasing to exist in that way is considered bad. The resolution that we look forward to is that the creation becomes an expression of G-d's Unity thus ending the contradiction and satisfying satan's conceptual source as well as the Divine Will for our existence.

Its common to whoever learns it. There's a lot of literature in Judaism, I mean a lot. So its entirely dependent on what area of study in Jewish literature someone delves in to. Its not required that a person be knowledgeable of non-halachic (having to do with Jewish law) areas of study, nor is this a required belief. The only reason that I happen to know it, is because my rabbi mentioned it to me in passing.

 

[RabbiO]

Therefore ... based on those facts,....

What facts?

 

[1137]

Do you believe Satan is a very real deity, or is Satan just a symbol? It seems to me that monotheism would require the latter, but what's your viewpoint?

Feel free to include other "dark lords" and religious text if you want.

Satan is a perversion of the Form of individual freedom and existence, that which goes against the gods. It's a very real and present force in the life of human beings. I think our fear of freedom, responsibility, uncertainty, and change caused us to demonize this aspect of ourselves and therefore its Form.

 

[Tumah]

What facts?

I would like to give you another star for actually reading it...