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Featured Let's go over this again, shall we, about chances--

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by YoursTrue, Sep 4, 2022.

  1. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    No. What I am saying is that there is no good reason to believe in a God because there is no way to detect one. Science is simply the way to go about detecting something.

    I disagree. There are rules of conduct that lead to better interactions and better societies. Those rule are the ethical rules. No God needed.

    And ethics is a human construct as well. That doesn't mean either is unimportant or unreal.

    Both are false statements. To be testable by science is precisely the same as simply being testable. Science can, and does , detect the behaviors of humans and what they consider to be ethical and aesthetics.

    And, science has no problem figuring out things like how stars come about. Or planets. or various chemicals, etc.

    That is not the only reason. But the lack of detectability is a good reason to not believe.

    I would disagree. Science has the ability to detect, test, and determine the origin of anything that actually exists.

    And I disagree that it is not a scientific question. If God is detectable and testable, it can be found by science. If it cannot be detected or tested, there is no reason to believe it exists at all.
     
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  2. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Because it is testable and repeatable. That's the same way we can know that anything is true.

    Once again, it is NOT a presupposition. It is a conclusion based on the same principles I use to determine whether or not anything else exists.

    No miracle has ever been observed and tested. Natural science could hypothesize a deity. It just has no need to.

    And I disagree. Science is tasked with observation and testing. It has no limitations on what it can hypothesize and only limited in observation and testing by our abilities to detect and test.

    And those experiences are investigated. We can even induce OBE artificially. We know that NDE are similar to what is experienced with ketamine, and that a ketamine analog is active during circulatory collapse.

    The problem is that the results of the investigations doesn't agree with your beliefs.
     
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  3. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Show that there is a spirit in a bacterium. Or even, for that matter, a human.

    Life *is* a collection of chemical processes. No spirits needed. That is demonstrated by biochemistry, which explains *all* of the basic properties of life with chemistry.

    And why is it that science cannot determine the existence of a spirit? What prevents getting actual observational evidence of such things?

    ALL matter holds information. Simply being an oxygen atom as opposed to a nitrogen atom is information. The information is in the different properties of the atoms, from size, to ability to bind, to charges, etc. That *is* information.

    If the explanation can be done without anything 'outside', then nothing outside is required to explain it.

    Nothing outside is required to explain the properties of living things.

    And exactly how does postulating a deity help to explain what happened? How does it help to describe the *mechanism* of how life got started?



    Yes I know that science cannot attribute anything to God even when no other reasonable answer is there. Speculate until what is hypothesized sounds reasonable enough and justify a faith in naturalism.

    And, then, how is it possible to know about it? What, other than observation, hypothesizing, and testing, can be used to determine the properties of spirits and deities?
     
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  4. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Faith has no place in science. It's useless. Science is evidence-based.

    Why do religionists always try to drag science down to the level of their religion? It's quite telling.

    Why do you have faith in the Bible?
     
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  5. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Science works.

    Also, not "faith" required.
    Science has a very empirical and verifiable track record of yielding reliable results.

    This is why people who try to build a machine use science to do so instead of asking the gods or spirits or whatever on how to do it.
     
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  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Not a coherent response, and lacks a basic knowledge of the English language to understand the difference between what is faith, and the objective evidence of the nature of our physical existence based on objective evidence.

    You also have failed to respond to the basic observable facts that the nature of our physical existence, life, abiogenesis and evolution are not based on chance, randomness or luck. They ares based on observable objective Natural Laws and natural processes determined through science.
     
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  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Science does not know what life is or if abiogenesis happened or if evolution happened the ways or to the extent that science presumes it did.
    Science does not know that in the exact same conditions on a twin planet in the universe and given the same length of time, that life have begun.
     
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    As usual your knowledge is over the top appalling, and you are stuck in an ancient mythology thousands of years old. You are no even aware of what science knows and does not know.
     
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  9. Astrophile

    Astrophile Active Member

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    There are over 1400 species of bats - Bat - Wikipedia - and about 18,500 species of butterflies - Butterfly - Wikipedia . Do you accept that all the living species of bats and butterflies are descended from common ancestors (mammalian ancestors for bats and lepidopteran ancestors for butterflies)? How do you know that bonobos and gorillas are not evolving to different forms of apes?
     
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  10. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    I don't know that much about bats, in other words, how many different types there are and if they can interbreed, but I figure bats have a common ancestor bat couple maybe.
     
  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    So you allow for a fairly large amount of evolution. Now, how closely are humans related to, say, bonobos as compared to how closely different bats are related?
     
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  12. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    I understand the question. Let's stick to bats for a while. Do you know if the different types interbreed?
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Bats are hardly a significant issue in the discussion of evolution. Yes like all similar species in many groups of species, and subspecies of different related animals interbreed. The process is called hyberdization, which is part of the evolution process..

    Ineresting reference: List of genetic hybrids - Wikipedia.
     
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  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    And that reminded me of a problem. When it comes to hybridization. There are very few genetically pure American Bison left. There is a large herd in Yellowstone, another in South Dakota, and a few small ones scattered across the country. Genetic diversity is a problem. There are quite a few others, but they all tend to have some cow DNA.

    https://www.idtdna.com/pages/commun...mperiled-ruler-of-america-s-iconic-landscapes
     
  15. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    If you would be so kind, can you please just talk about bats as far as interbreeding goes? Do bat species interbreed insofar as you know? The link you provided on wikipedia is lengthy, and since you know so much about these things, perhaps you can kindly say yes, bats do interbreed producing a different group, perhaps mentioning what these are insofar as producing different groups, or no, they do not. Thank you.
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Already answered the question and the answer is yes as described. It is not what I know it is simply well documented science..
     
  17. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Yes this is an example of human caused lack of genetic diversity in an animal species. The lack of genetic diversity in this case sets the species up for extinction,

    The survival of populations of related species, subspecies and varieties is dependent on genetic diversity and hybridization to evolve in response to 'survival pf the fittest.'
     
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  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    Can you at least show a reference to particular distinct but not-quite-the-same bats that have interbred?
     
  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    What's well documented? That various forms interbreed, or that bats interbreed and the groups are identified? Re: bats -- where is it "well-documented" that the various groups interbreed or have interbred and thus documented? Thank you.
     
  20. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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    You really do not know how life began.
     
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