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Let's define God.

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Phoenix, Aug 15, 2004.

  1. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    scripture where god lies or sends a 'lying spirit' to trick people

    1 Kg.22:23
    "Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
    2 Chr.18:22
    "Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets."
    Jer.20:7
    "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."
    Ezek.14:9
    "And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."
    2 Th.2:11
    "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

    wa:do
     
  2. Mr Spinkles

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    Problem: if God lies to you, He would tell you "I do not lie" and if God does not lie to you, He would still tell you "I do not lie". So there really isn't any way for you to know whether God lie or not.

    No, you shared about 8 scriptures from the Bible where some men say God says He doesn't lie.

    Really? Well the Holy Spirit testified to me that God does lie sometimes. So which one of us heard the 'real' Holy Spirit? What did yours sound like?
     
  3. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    I don't know if he chose to read into the future on that.and even if he did, to stop it from happening would take away out free will our ability to choose, i.e.; our purpose is to choose to follow him or not.

    eternal dismemberment from him is only brought by those whom knowingly choose to act contrary to his will, he knows what's best for us.and allowing things to happen or punishing those who do otherwise reminds us what is wrong.in the end, everyone will get what they deserve.


    --$
     
  4. Mercellus

    Mercellus Member

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    Mr_Spinkles,

    Are you saying that God is imperfect? Because Jesus Christ commanded us in Matthew 5:49 - "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So, if we are to be like God the Father and one of the Ten Commandments says 'Thou shalt not lie' but God does lie, why do we have that commandment? I am not seeing any logic in this matter. So, if I keep the commandment 'Thou shalt not lie' but God doesn't, then that makes me better than God. Is this what you are saying?

    God would not give us a commandment that He wouldn't already be keeping.
     
  5. Mercellus

    Mercellus Member

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    Mr_Spinkles,

    I find it hilarious that in this thread you are claiming that the Holy Spirit has testified to you that God lies, but in the religous debates forum under The Question of Faith you claim not to believe in God. So, are you in a state of uncertainty? So, even if the Holy Ghost testified to you that God lies, that means you have a testimony that there is a God, but you are saying in the other forum that you don't believe in God - but, if you did, you suppose that what they are saying could be true.

    What truly is your stand on God, Mr_Spinkles? Does He or doesn't He exist for you?
     
  6. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    No, it wouldn't. We don't need evil to have free-will.

    "Scripture check, aisle 5"

    Sorry, Mercellus, but you might want to re-read your bible a bit before you try to quote any more of it. There is no such commandment as 'Thou shalt not lie', although I must concede, it would make a nice 11th...obviously that would put god in a bit of a bind though, wouldn't it?

    I'm afraid that I find it infinitely more hialrious than you. He's being sarcastic with you to prove a point and it's gone completely over your head. Read between the lines, my friend.
     
  7. Mercellus

    Mercellus Member

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    Just returned from scripture check on aisle 5

    Results: Leviticus 19:11 - "Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another."

    Exodus 20:16 - "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

    HHHMMMM.....sounds like commandments to me.

    Mr_Spinkles may be being sarcastic, but God lives and loves Mr_Spinkles and you, Ceridwen018.
     
  8. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    The Leviticus reference is of Jewish law, not the original 10 commandments. As for the Exodus reference, to 'bear witness against one's neighbor' means to testify at a trial as a witness. This commandment states that you cannot commit perjury, not that you can't lie altogether.

    Do you understand the point that Mr. Spinkles was trying to make?
     
  9. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    "No, it wouldn't. We don't need evil to have free-will."

    we do on the other hand need to be able to choose/deny it if we are to have free will all options need to be availible.

    --S
     
  10. Mercellus

    Mercellus Member

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    Wait a minute, wait a minute. The Ten Commandments were given to Moses, right? And, if you look at the first verse of chapter 19 in Leviticus, it reads: "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying," So, where is the difference coming in here?

    Now, about bearing false witness, for me, I don't care if it is in a court of law, in front of my parents, at school, with my friends, or at the last judgement day in front of the Lord, bearing false witness (lying) is wrong.

    Now, perhaps I do not understand the point that Mr_Spinkles is trying to make. Now knowing, at least from another thread of posts, that Mr_Spinkles, at least there, has made the statement that he does not believe in God, and then comes here and mocks me for knowing that the Holy Ghost has born witness to me of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it is a little offensive. That is ok, however. He is entitled to his beliefs and may share them to bring others to his point of view or he may share them for his own self-satisfaction. You do the same, and I do the same.
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    Well, apparently the bible is contradicting itself again, as it says something different in Exodus than in Leviticus. Which are you going to believe?

    I agree. That's called a personal moral choice, well done. Making choices for yourself without the dictation of 'god' and the bible is the first step to becoming a good atheist ;).

    I'll let Mr. Spinkles take care of his own issue here.
     
  12. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    All options? I can't choose/deny whethor or not I want to turn invisible. Invisibility is an option which is not available to me. Is my free-will hindered? Technically, yes. Do I still have 'free-will'? Absolutely. It's the same with evil. Free-will is defined as the ability to choose/deny among given options, not choose/deny among all options which can be conceived. Therefore, we do not need evil to have free-will.
     
  13. Mr Spinkles

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    The point I'm trying to make is that you cannot support your argument about God by claiming God told you so. Many people claim the Holy Spirit, God, Allah, etc. speaks to them...there are more people in this world who claim to speak on God's behalf than there are hairs on my head. And they all contradict each other. It seems few are willing to simply let God speak to others for Himself.

    I sincerely apologize. If I have offended you, it was unintentional. What I said was not meant to mock you, but to make a point--that ultimately, if you want to believe God does not lie, you are going to have to use faith...not logical arguments. You can't come to that conclusion logically, i.m.h.o. (see above arguments).
     
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