Let there be no compulsion in religion

[LuisDantas]

Exactly. So in the end, various verses will be interpreted in numerous ways, depending upon the bias of the interpreter, the education level of the interpreter, etc. Makes them kinda sloppy, doesn't it.

If only it were just that...

 

[firedragon]

1/ According of the Quran, is it a sin to leave Islam? Is so, what should be the attitude of Muslims towards one who has previously been a Muslim and becomes a Christian, Baha’i or atheist?

Depends. The Quran explains in the chapter 4 that "Sin" or "Sawaaa" in arabic will not be forgiven if you intentionally wait until your deathbed out of malice thinking you can fool God. Which means your so called sins made out of ignorance, not knowing that its a sin is easily forgiven by God. This word Al Sawaaa (Assawaaa) means evil/sin. It could be by mistake as well. And its given examples like taking other peoples money illicitly,

And across the Quran, there is no indication whatsoever that leaving Islam as a religion is taken as an unforgivable sin. But there is a huge problem in understanding other things that are considered as sin in the Quran which i expect to hear.

2/ How extensive is the belief in apostasy laws in Islam? We can easily list the countries who have apostasy laws but how prevalent are views amongst Muslims that legitimise apostasy laws?

When you say "in Islam" it is as diverse as one could get. There is no one Islam in this world. If you speak to a Muslim in my family about apostasy laws you will see the most shocked-out faces you have ever seen. And thats a very traditional Sunni society. No one knows about apostasy laws and we were never taught in basic madrasa's. We were only taught in discussing fikh or jurisprudence and differences between various madhab or schools of thought based on views of early imams. But this is all sociology, not theology. Theologically apostasy laws have beenn spelled out in certain madhabs or schools of thought only, not in Islam as a blanket statement. It was predominantly the Hanbali madhab that has apostasy in the fikh and is the most famous, the foundation for ibn Thaimmeiyah, Abdul Wahhab, and modern day salafi movements. To cut it short if "Islam is Quran", there is no apostasy laws because Quran says as you pointed out la ikraaha fiddheeni, no compulsionn in religion this way or that way (people who claim this is only to enter islam are just making an ignorant claim because karaha means any kind of force or compulsion in the religion or more appropriately "dheen" or system, whatsoever), and if "Islam is the Hanbali school of thought" yes, they have apostasy laws.

3/ Given belief in apostasy laws is so widespread in Islam, what are the justifications from the Quran, Sunnah and Hadiths for and against apostasy. Its clearly a fiercely debated topic in Islam amongst scholars and jurists.

It depends on your school of thought. If you are a hanbali, you dont have "Akal" or "intellectual reasoning" but you practice thakleedh which means "follow the imam". But if you are Maliki, then Akal precedes over and above any imam or dogma so its completely against this apostasy nonsense. I am not saying this is right or not, im just saying this is the backgrounnd becuase thats your question.

When you say Sunnah that itself is different between these madhabs, some speak of Sunnathullah or Sunnah of God, the others Sunnah and Hadith are always interchangeable which is absolutely wrong according to other Jurists like Malik bin anas.

None of this has anything to do with the Quran. They are all based on hadith. The whole debate is based on hadith. And that too, which hadith you pick matters. And how you wish to understand that hadith matters. Some understand Ardhad or apostasy is purely meant to address a deserter who maliciously joined the opposing army of the early Muslims during Abu Bakrs time for personal benefits like power and money. And even according to these hadiths that is definitely the more reasonable understanding.

 

[firedragon]

Hmmm....do you pray or meditate at all? or do you just read books? I would question what you're doing if you're only reading books....

He speaks to God directly and thats based on his own attestation.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Depends. The Quran explains in the chapter 4 that "Sin" or "Sawaaa" in arabic will not be forgiven if you intentionally wait until your deathbed out of malice thinking you can fool God. Which means your so called sins made out of ignorance, not knowing that its a sin is easily forgiven by God. This word Al Sawaaa (Assawaaa) means evil/sin. It could be by mistake as well. And its given examples like taking other peoples money illicitly,

And across the Quran, there is no indication whatsoever that leaving Islam as a religion is taken as an unforgivable sin. But there is a huge problem in understanding other things that are considered as sin in the Quran which i expect to hear.

So its not entirely clear whether or not leaving Islam is a sin and under what circumstances. That’s fine. Some things we need to work out for ourselves.

We’ll keep to leaving Islam as a sin or a crime. I think we agree it shouldn’t be a crime to leave Islam and there’s no clear support from the Quran for such a position.

Converting from being a Muslim to being a Baha’i is interesting as Baha’is continue to believe in the Quran as the Word of God and Muhammad as a Messenger.

When you say "in Islam" it is as diverse as one could get. There is no one Islam in this world. If you speak to a Muslim in my family about apostasy laws you will see the most shocked-out faces you have ever seen. And thats a very traditional Sunni society. No one knows about apostasy laws and we were never taught in basic madrasa's. We were only taught in discussing fikh or jurisprudence and differences between various madhab or schools of thought based on views of early imams. But this is all sociology, not theology. Theologically apostasy laws have beenn spelled out in certain madhabs or schools of thought only, not in Islam as a blanket statement. It was predominantly the Hanbali madhab that has apostasy in the fikh and is the most famous, the foundation for ibn Thaimmeiyah, Abdul Wahhab, and modern day salafi movements. To cut it short if "Islam is Quran", there is no apostasy laws because Quran says as you pointed out la ikraaha fiddheeni, no compulsionn in religion this way or that way (people who claim this is only to enter islam are just making an ignorant claim because karaha means any kind of force or compulsion in the religion or more appropriately "dheen" or system, whatsoever), and if "Islam is the Hanbali school of thought" yes, they have apostasy laws.

I see important differences between Islam, Muhammad and the Quran. Islam may not necessarily reflect what Muhammad nor the Quran taught. Apostasy laws are one example.

It depends on your school of thought. If you are a hanbali, you dont have "Akal" or "intellectual reasoning" but you practice thakleedh which means "follow the imam". But if you are Maliki, then Akal precedes over and above any imam or dogma so its completely against this apostasy nonsense. I am not saying this is right or not, im just saying this is the backgrounnd becuase thats your question.

When you say Sunnah that itself is different between these madhabs, some speak of Sunnathullah or Sunnah of God, the others Sunnah and Hadith are always interchangeable which is absolutely wrong according to other Jurists like Malik bin anas.

None of this has anything to do with the Quran. They are all based on hadith. The whole debate is based on hadith. And that too, which hadith you pick matters. And how you wish to understand that hadith matters. Some understand Ardhad or apostasy is purely meant to address a deserter who maliciously joined the opposing army of the early Muslims during Abu Bakrs time for personal benefits like power and money. And even according to these hadiths that is definitely the more reasonable understanding

Thanks for answering my questions. There’s nothing like being able to discuss such matters with actual Muslims.

 

[Shad]

Actually I do. It just happens that that is not always decisive. Usually, but not always.

Yet when you talk about Islam you contradict being PC.

They exist, but they are not typical.

Sure.

I wonder if not being typical is due to Hinduism not having a serious proselytizing slant compared to Christianity and Islam.

 

[firedragon]

So its not entirely clear whether or not leaving Islam is a sin and under what circumstances.

Clear in the Quran. Not clear in various schools of thoughts in islam. We Make the differentiation.

I see important differences between Islam, Muhammad and the Quran. Islam may not necessarily reflect what Muhammad nor the Quran taught. Apostasy laws are one example.

Again, when you say islam, do you mean the Quran? Or do you mean a madhab? We make the differentiation. And yes, apostasy laws is one example and is a pertinent topic.

Thanks for answering my questions. There’s nothing like being able to discuss such matters with actual Muslims.

the honour is mine.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yet when you talk about Islam you contradict being PC.

By one perception, apparently.

Then again, I have a conscience and try to be faithful to it.

I do not have the luxury to be always understood and supported by others. But that is how things are.

Sure.

I wonder if not being typical is due to Hinduism not having a serious proselytizing slant compared to Christianity and Islam.

Perhaps, but I think that it is a simple matter of adequacy of doctrine instead. Hinduism does not strike me as quite that adverse to proselitism.