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Let There Be Light and There Was Light

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Ben Masada, Dec 6, 2010.

  1. kylixguru

    kylixguru Well-Known Member

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    (...Continued)

    I don't refute that. But, if I hire a hit-man to murder someone, am I innocent of murder?

    Matthew 27:37 says: "And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."

    Paul didn't say the law was abolished in Ephesians. He said the enmity or opposition between man and God was abolished. Though exactly what he meant by the phrase "even the law of commandments contained in ordinances" was a bit unclear, it certainly is not an unqualified dismissal of the law. What did happen was the outward ordinances were modified, by Jesus Himself, to no longer require the shedding of the blood of beasts and to move it up to the higher or spiritual plane where we now shed the blood within, so to speak, by offering our own sacrifices to Him of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. In other places Paul made it very clear the law had not been done away. For example, Romans 7:12 says: "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

    Do as you wish. I'll quote references when I feel like it and in response to sincere requests. When Jesus and Satan had their dialog, were they quoting with references or without?

    Moot point. My point stands.

    Actually I'm finding your insistence to stereotype me as a typical Christian quite irritating. You really need to wipe the slate clear in our dialog or I just may use your policy to deem us finished.

    I have no idea what that even is. I am totally unlearned in any formal Christian theological disciplines of any kind. My reading in those circles of study is minimal.

    Since I don't know what you are talking about here in regard to Replacement Theology, you are the one trying to ramrod me into some kind of a classification of your own making.

    You accused me of being a hateful person who encourages genocide. I don't think this was justified but you are entitled to that opinion. Feel free to present any evidence in my words where you feel such is the case. I'll gladly give it a look.

    I don't detect any feelings of hatred towards Jews in me and I certainly have no hopes or aspirations that any of them are subject to a genocidal calamity. I have encouraged my children to read books about how Jewish families survived in the underground networks provided by Christians to help them stay out of the labor camps and so on. We are very mindful of what took place under the Fascist rule in Germany. I see it coming in the future to Christians as Fascism gets another go here so I have some self-interest in taking an interest in this part of history.

    My hope is that all of us who are of the chosen seed of our Father Israel can come together in peace and unity and perform the role God has ordained us to fulfill, which is to bring to this earth a period of peace and blessings unsurpassed in all of recorded history. This shall happen when we can all come together and enjoy knowing the truths of all the mysteries of God's Plan for us AND DO IT.

    I know that my dear brothers of Judah are going to play a powerful and pivotal role in the turning about of things. We don't see eye to eye yet, but that day shall come.

    Have a nice day!
     
  2. mohammed_beiruti

    mohammed_beiruti Active Member

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    It could be the Torah as the light.
     
  3. kylixguru

    kylixguru Well-Known Member

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    I agree Torah contains the Light of which I speak. The days are coming when Judah shall perceive that Light. When they do, they will understand how it all fits together and the part they played and the part they shall play.

    Have a nice day!
     
  4. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    All of the research that I have done negates your assumption. According to all of my sources the following is correct.
    The mother determines if a baby is Jewish.
    1. If a Gentile man marries a Jewish woman the baby resulting from this union is Jewish.
    2. If a Jewish man marries a gentile woman the baby from this union is not Jewish.

    Now for the case of tribal affiliation: (Note I copy and pasted this information) This information was also confirmed by a Rabbi.
    Tribal and family affiliations of this type can not be claimed by adoption (Numbers 1:18-44,34:14; Leviticus 24:10)
    Under Jewish law, tribal affiliation is conferred through the birth father only (Numbers 1:18-44,34:14,Leviticus 24:10)

    Invalid argument see above

    What I would like to understand is why must Christians insist that Jesus was the Jewish messiah. Jesus was not a Christian he was a Jew (easy to see since there was no Christians during Jesus lifetime). The only reason I can see for Christians insisting that Jesus was the Jewish messiah is to prove that Jews killed their messiah. If you want to believe that God sent his son to pay for the sins of man you only need to prove that he was the son of a god, not necessarily the son of the Jewish God. The major push of the Christian sect was to convert pagans to Christianity. These pagans had many gods so it would seem that all they, the Christians, needed was a son of a god and not necessarily the son of the Jewish God.
     
  5. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada Well-Known Member

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    We can't continue with our dialogue because I can't work with someone who expects me to take his word for it. There is no way to make you quote your assertions. Sorry!
     
    #145 Ben Masada, Jan 19, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  6. kylixguru

    kylixguru Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your efforts here as this is not an area of expertise on my part. What are your sources for points #1 and #2?

    I'm actually not concerned whether Jesus was given a standing in the House or Tribe of Judah or not. There isn't any stipulation that says Messiah must be of the House of Judah. The only stipulation I am aware of is that in some manner He must be a descendent of David's father Jesse and have right to hold the scepter. There are two assets in his favor. Mary was of Jesse's blood and he was adopted by Joseph. I have seen nothing in Law that would preclude Jesus from making the claims (even if by implication only) that He made.

    The reason Christians insist that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah is because the whole basis for their faith is rooted in Torah. They also are just as concerned about Jews receiving their Messiah as anyone else and promote what they understand to have been the truth in the matter.

    You _seem_ to have in the context or premise of your remarks the underlying tone "The people who fabricated the myths of Christianity knew they were frauds and just making stuff up. That being the case, why did they have to make it so hard for themselves to maintain their story? ..."

    Have a nice day!
     
  7. tumbleweed41

    tumbleweed41 Resident Liberal Hippie

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    Unless one discounts Genesis 49:10
    The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.

    And Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    But, I am not one for Biblical prophesy anyway.
     
  8. kylixguru

    kylixguru Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall expecting you to take my word for anything. I do appreciate being heard and considered, but beyond that you are fully accountable for what you believe or don't believe.

    There is an interesting capacity that some people have and some people don't have. If I may, in our parting exchange, advocate you request a firmware upgrade so as to attain or at least enlarge that capacity so that you can stay in discussions like ours longer and not deprive yourself, and others, of receiving finer nutrients...

    Pigs are unclean animals for one reason. They do not ruminate. They must either swallow and that's it or they do not partake. You are suggesting here that you lack the capacity to ruminate.

    Animals that ruminate are able to take something and chew on it for a while and if something unpleasant or tainted seems to be in their food they can recall it and spit it out. Also, even if their food is pleasant and not tainted, they can chew on it, stew on it, chew on it, stew on it, etc. until they have extracted every possible nutrient available in their food.

    Thus, when Jesus addressed the people who were prone to reject what He was trying to establish He could observe the level or degree to which His listeners would ruminate or not. He pointed out that the ones most inclined to rend Him were the ones least inclined to ruminate. Therefore, He admonished His servants: "Cast not your pearls before swine, they shall trample them under foot (not even swallow) and turn and rend you."

    If I were a physician and you came to me seeking a spiritual health checkup, my x-ray would reveal you have no ruminant faculties.

    Have a nice day!
     
    #148 kylixguru, Jan 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2011
  9. kylixguru

    kylixguru Well-Known Member

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    Interesting you should mention this scripture as it actually supports what I am saying. Please allow me to explain.

    I'm not sure what translation you are using but the phrase "he to whom it belongs" is actually Shiloh, which is a reference to the Birthright Messiah. The implications from the phrase "the scepter will not depart from Judah ... until Shiloh comes" can also be rendered "when Shiloh comes the scepter shall depart from Judah". What this is actually saying is when the Messiah from the Birthright has His advent it shall be in the Last Days (see vs 1) and at that time the scepter will be taken from the House of Judah and given to the Birthright tribe. Initially it would go to Ephraim, but Ephraim also botches things and so finally it goes to Joseph before all is said and done and the Kingdom is established in victory.

    So, the implication here is the scepter was not promised to the House of Judah forever so there is no requirement for its holder to be of the House of Judah. The only requirement is that they be a natural descendent of King David's father Jesse.

    Indeed Jesus came out of Bethlehem, but like many mainstream Christians do, you seem to be assuming there is only one advent of Christ. Jesus Himself said (in Luke 12) there would be two more advents of Christ. These future advents would have to be of David's lineage because a Messiah must also be King. But, because they are an advent as Jesus was, they shall be a normal person. Thus, they can and shall have a different tribal association than Jesus had. Thus, the Messiah(s) from the Birthright tribe need only have a mixture of David's blood to qualify. This is a plain and precious truth that if not fully understood will cause a person to be stuck and never able to "know the Father and receive Eternal Life" as Jesus said one must do.

    I still appreciate your efforts!

    Have a nice day!
     
  10. esmith

    esmith Veteran Member

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    There are many references, here is one:
    Who is a Jew?

    .

    It is so decreed in Genesis 49:10, Esekiel 34:32, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; and Hosea 3:4-5

    .

    First let's set the record straight, the Torah is the Five Books of Moses, the Tanakh is the Hebrew bible consisting of the Torah, Nev'im and the Kethuvim. You say that they, I assume Christians, faith is rooted in the Hebrew Bible. However, referring to the NT does not it put forth the following: A right standing before God must come through Jesus death and resurrection and nothing else. Therefor Jewish law is not the way to have a right standing before God but only through Jesus.

    Yes I believe that there were many false, forged, and exaggerated stories in the NT. This is why I have serious doubts about the Christian faith. I have no desire to attempt to change what you believe, I am just presenting what I am starting to believe.
     
  11. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was delivering that speech "The Sermon of the Mountain" to a multitude of Jews. (Mat. 5:1; 7:28) If he was talking to the Jews, whom was he talking about when he warned them not to give what is holy to the dogs, neither cast their pearls before swine? Obviously, he was referring to the Gentiles. (Mat. 7:6) Why do I think so? Because this was not his first time he referred in such a words to the Gentiles, whom he had a kind of aversion to. If you read Matthew 10:5, every time he would send his 12 into a mission to spread the news about the Kingdom, he would warn them not to take the way of the Gentiles and not even enter a Samaritan town. Then, if you still read Matthew 15:26, a Canaanite woman approached him to ask him to cure her daughter and his answer was that it was not meet to take from the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. I have never heard of a Jew to refer to Gentiles as dogs or swines, but from Jesus of all peoples. What was going on with your Jesus Christ?
     
  12. Civil Shephard

    Civil Shephard Active Member

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    Perhaps Jesus was referring to people who have no love in their hearts for truth. It seems to me that the Canaanite woman realized Jesus wasn't calling her a dog but you seem to think he was. I don't know but every time I read the Sermon on the Mount I feel like Jesus is talking to all people who really want to find out who and what our God Creator is like and how best to do our Creators will. Excuse me if I don't believe for a minute your interpretation of the words of Yeshua Messiah. I know his words are spirit and truth and that they transcend lineage, people, places and things.

    What was going on with Jesus?

    I think he was seperating the sheep from the goats.... goats who trample the clear water of truth and muddy the drink.
     
  13. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada Well-Known Member

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    So, it seems to you that the Canaanite woman realized that Jesus was not calling her a dog. I understand you. I would fight for the same ideology if I was moved by Christian pre-conceived notions. But did you read what she said to get what she wanted? She admitted her condition of a dog and said to Jesus that dogs also eat from the crumbs that fall from their masters' table. It means that she did understand Jesus loud and clear.(Mat. 15:27)

    Faith is the word to prevent you from believing my so clear interpretation of the words of Jesus. Faith was also what prevented almost a thousand of the faithful of Jim Jones from knowing better whom they were following to death.

    What was going on with Jesus?

    Now, I must admit you are right. He must have been trying to separate Jews from Gentiles. Otherwise, how would you explain his orders to his disciples not to take the news of the kingdom of heaven to the Gentiles but to the Jews only? (Mat. 10:5)
     
  14. kylixguru

    kylixguru Well-Known Member

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    He was absolutely correct in all that He said here. That most definitely was the policy at the time. This policy did not change until Peter was shown in vision the unclean animals (Gentiles) and told that they were now being given a charge to extend the opportunity of salvation to them. (See Acts 10)

    Are you saying this should have never happened?

    Are you expecting me to impute to you the capacity to function as a clean animal (despite the lack of evidence) just because you claim to be a Jew?
     
    #154 kylixguru, Jan 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2011
  15. Orias

    Orias Left Hand Path

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    That must be what makes the whole shindig a fallacy.
     
  16. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada Well-Known Member

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    No MB, Torah was written by man, especially Prophets inspired by God about the People of Israel. Then, Isaiah said that Israel had been assigned as light unto the nations. (Isa. 42:6) Then, Jesus, speaking to a multitude of Jews said that they were the light of the world. Consider that he did not say they had but that they were. Why? Because what one has can be taken away if not by anything, by death. As an individual, we have, but as a people, we are. Because, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37, as long as the natural laws function properly, Israel is to remain forever as a People before the Lord.

    Now, if you read Psalm 119:105, "The Word of God is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path." Then, if you read Psalm 147:19,20, the Word of God was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth, so that by means of us the Lord our God should reveal His glory in the sight of the nations. (Ezek. 20:41) Therefore, that light created in Genesis 1:3 was a prophecy to be fulfilled with the rise of Israel in the near future from the stock of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
     
  17. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada Well-Known Member

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    You are terribly wrong when you say that Jesus' attitude towards Gentiles was the policy of the time. Gentiles were always accepted every time they wished to join Israel. Read Isaiah 56:1-8. Even a name better than sons and daughters they would receive for converting to Judaism. Don't forget that Ruth, an ancestor of king David was a Gentile. I do wonder about Jesus' attitude.
     
  18. kylixguru

    kylixguru Well-Known Member

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    You are trying harder to argue than to understand.

    You yourself said "every time they wished to join Israel".

    There is an important distinction that hinges on this point.

    The 'dog' woman who sought some 'crumbs' was given them.
    Why? Because she sought them with faith.

    Jesus was simply making the point that they were not to seek out the Gentiles at that time. However, you assume He meant they also should deny them regardless of their efforts and qualifications to seek it out. Thus, yet again, you are implying a level of exclusivity that did not exist.

    This policy shall return and again after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. It will go back to the Gentiles needing to step forward of their own choice and seek out their blessings. With few exceptions, they will be afforded all the same privileges as the "natural branches" (See Romans 11) of Israel.

    You also need to consider there are some additional factors Jesus was aware of that most people do not take into consideration. The people of the northern kingdom had long since been driven out of their land and scattered among all the nations of the Gentiles. See Ezekiel 4 for the basis of this. God considered the northern kingdom an adulterous wife and put her away. (See Ezekiel 23) The law prescribed that she be put to death and at the societal body level being driven out and scattered manifested it. Her body was decomposing in her scattered state awaiting her resurrection, which is to be gathered back in when Shiloh would come. If a woman is a put away bride and another husband receives her, she causes him to commit adultery because that woman is not actually freed from the law of her husband until he is dead. So, being that the northern kingdom had been as a wife to the Lord, she would not be eligible to be remarried to anyone until her Lord had died. Thus, Jesus understood if He did anything to posture towards the scattered people of the northern kingdom prior to the death of her Lord (which He Himself came to fulfill) that they could not be touched as that would make of Him an adulterer. So, after Jesus had been killed and had manifested the death of her Lord, she was freed from the law of her husband opening up the capability to begin ministering to what He called the "lost sheep of Israel" that He knew were scattered among the Gentiles. This is why Peter did not get that vision until after Jesus had died. There's quite a bit more to it than this, but hopefully you can see more of the underlying landscape of things now.
     
    #158 kylixguru, Jan 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2011
  19. mohammed_beiruti

    mohammed_beiruti Active Member

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    Ok ben, let me quote the verse of psalm 119:105,

    I am as a muslem consider the Torah as the words of God.

    Qura'an Ch.5 verse 44
    44. It was We who revealed
    The Law (to Moses): therein
    Was guidance and light.'
    By its standard have been judged
    The Jews, by the Prophets
    Who bowed (as in Islam)
    To God's Will, by the Rabbis
    And the Doctors of Law:
    For to them was entrusted
    The protection of God's Book,
    And they were witnesses thereto:
    Therefore fear not men,
    But fear Me, and sell not
    My Signs for a miserable price.
    If any do fail to judge
    By (the light of) what God
    Hath revealed, they are
    (No better than) Unbelievers.

    the debate is not whether the Torah is light or not, but rather what was meant by light in Genesis 1:3.

    ok, you jews know beter than us so that I asked you.
     
  20. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada Well-Known Member

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    And you are not trying hard enough to understand as you are to argue. Yes, I did say that every time one tries to join Israel, he is welcome. This has been our policy since the time of the Prophets. Why Jesus forbade his disciples to take the gospel to the Gentiles or even enter a Samaritan town is beyond comprehension. Your explanation is too hypothetical.

    Something Bad Jesus Did=

    Once, I was asked if there was anything bad Jesus did in his life. My answer was: Yes, there was something Jesus did, which I wish he had not done, because it does
    not represent well the People he belonged to.

    Once a Gentile Canaanite mother was crying after him, asking for her daughter to be cured, and Jesus would not give a damn to her. His disciples told him to do something for that woman or discard her, because she was making them go crazy with her non-stop crying. What did Jesus say? I haven't come for Gentiles but ONLY for the House of Israel. Then, kept on going and the woman kept on crying and following him. (Mat. 15:22-24)

    When he couldn't take any longer, he stopped and told her: Hey, listen, what do you want from me? To cure my daughter Master. No way, I cannot take of the food of the children and throw it unto the dogs.

    He meant the Jews for the children, and the Gentiles for the dogs. But only after the woman understood and recognized her condition of dog, by saying that the dogs also feed from the crumbles that fall from the table of the children, Jesus saw that he would never get rid of that woman. So, he changed his mind and cured her
    daughter. Then, to erase a little the impression left on her for being forced to recognize her doggy condition, he mentioned something about her strong faith and left.

    That was terrible, if we can imagine what that poor woman went through till she got what she wanted. The text is in Matthew 15:21-28.

    Ben
     
    #160 Ben Masada, Jan 21, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2011
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